Storytelling

Three-Eyed Crow

Is it efficient enough to tell people "this is when I can be on, talk among yourselves and tell me when you want the next scene ran"? Is it more or less fair than that to start the next scene with an +event at some time convenient for the ST and whoever can make it may come? Or is it reasonable for players to expect the ST to go a step further and organize them?

I feel like it's reasonable to ask players when would be best for them, to try and work around their schedules if they communicate them to you, and to use web-based scheduling tools (I like When Is Good? and Doodle.com) if there's enough buy-in to make those worthwhile. I don't have much faith in players' ability to organize themselves, but beyond that, I do feel like as the GM it's your job to cat-herd to some degree. Unfortunately.

If you ask these things and players don't tell you them (or can't because their schedules are too ephemeral), meh, stuff happens when it's convenient for you to make it happen and people show up if they can, or don't. I don't wring my hands too much about it if they can't, if I feel like I've made a reasonable effort. That's the only way to stay sane.

il-volpe

@Pyrephox said:

This is, honestly, why I feel like more MUs should focus on higher quantities of smaller, more personal plots, rather than the sprawling metaplot end-of-the-city stuff that draws in, in my experience, /far more/ PCs than are ever going to have a chance to contribute meaningfully. Which inevitably ends up with people feeling pushed out because they couldn't attend X Plot Important Event, or (sometimes accurately and sometimes not) that some people are 'hoarding' plot or favored by the GMs.

Yeah. The 'metaplot' is, in my experience, boring, annoying, unfair, and ends up focused on the headstaff's friends and staff-alts. It interrupts other, player-driven RP, fucks up the world, generally makes things unstable, creates jealousy, and is railroady as all hell.

So, when I got GoB, a number of people were going, "So where's the metaplot?" and saying how any game that didn't have one was just not worth playing, and so forth. I, embarrassed at having never considered this (because, see above, I kinda hate metaplots), said, "Oh, there is one," and immediately wrote one up. The player who was most vocal about the 'need' for one had a baby shortly after, and stopped connecting. Another PC who was firmly entrenched in it stopped connecting too (though by then I was feeling disappointed with eir, for she'd seemed a good mark for a person who'd share plot, but wasn't) and another one's personal, player-driven RP drove the character to abandon the connections to the plot, so instead of it involvement growing wider and more diffuse as I'd hoped, it ended up largely abandoned, with my own staff-alt PC being the only person remaining who had much of a clue. Having observed it turn, with such grace and ease (when getting it going was much work) into exactly what I hate about metaplots, I rewrote. I've essentially rewritten the thing three times with similar results, and okay, I'll just keep doin' that. It's adaptable enough, but damn if I don't understand why they are usually just the thing I hate.

Arkandel

Having a metaplot isn't really meant to be about giving people a shot to beat it. To me it mainly means giving characters the opportunity to hook their own stories into a common central theme and a source for plot seeds. It's a framework, not a goal meant to be resolved.

il-volpe

Great scot @Arkandel -- if only people treated it that way!

Pyrephox

@Arkandel said:

Having a metaplot isn't really meant to be about giving people a shot to beat it. To me it mainly means giving characters the opportunity to hook their own stories into a common central theme and a source for plot seeds. It's a framework, not a goal meant to be resolved.

I would argue this is a terrible way to conceive of such a thing. If you're going to have a metaplot, it needs to be a /plot/. Which, yes, means that it needs to be accessable to the PCs tackling and 'solving', or rather, resolving it. The idea that a metaplot is just there as a thing to RP 'around' is terrible and frustrating.

Now, if what you actually mean is a game's theme or setting, that's something else. Like, in a CoC game, the metaplot isn't the Great Old Ones - they're part of the games setting and theme, so no, you're never going to beat them. But if the metaplot is 'a cult of Azathoth has infiltrated much of the city's power structure and is attempting to summon a hoard of star spawn to devour the city', then absolutely, the PCs should be able to interact with and change every part of that.

il-volpe

@Pyrephox

I took his meaning differently -- the 'metaplot' being something that's going on that characters RP about, within, around. A thing that's happening that PCs can effect, which is in that sense an overarching story for the game, but not something that the PCs must solve in some particular way.

The example that springs to mind is 'The Stand.' The first half, where the disease shows up and all the NPC-like characters die and the PC-like characters have to escape from New York and meet up, and meet one another and try to rebuild society is a kindly sort of metaplot. The second half, where they have to defeat Flagg, is the other sort. As a plot for the main characters of the book to be PCs in, it's great, but as the Most Important Thing Happening On The Game it's mean, because everybody else has to sit back and watch, and they can't continue their RP if the Flagg-fighters fuck it up, and, etc.

This is probably a shitty example, alas.

Miss Demeanor

As much as I love The Stand... it doesn't make the best example, no. It starts out with a fairly broad base group of PC's that get whittled down through death, betrayal... and pregnancy. If it were a true representation, you would see more main PC's appearing after certain ones die. But that doesn't really happen. The group whittles down more and more with precious few of them being replaced.

That said, the basic premise of it could make an awesome metaplot.

Thisnameistaken

@il-volpe said:

@Pyrephox said:

This is, honestly, why I feel like more MUs should focus on higher quantities of smaller, more personal plots, rather than the sprawling metaplot end-of-the-city stuff that draws in, in my experience, /far more/ PCs than are ever going to have a chance to contribute meaningfully. Which inevitably ends up with people feeling pushed out because they couldn't attend X Plot Important Event, or (sometimes accurately and sometimes not) that some people are 'hoarding' plot or favored by the GMs.

Yeah. The 'metaplot' is, in my experience, boring, annoying, unfair, and ends up focused on the headstaff's friends and staff-alts. It interrupts other, player-driven RP, fucks up the world, generally makes things unstable, creates jealousy, and is railroady as all hell.

I agree with il-volpe. Every 'metaplot' I've witnessed has revolved around a certain clique of people and while others can get 'involved', that involvement is generally in the form of giant meeting scenes or giant combat prp scenes, neither of which I find all that appealing.

Many of them also kill other RP. Hedge-related plots are notorious for this. Big bad guys making the Hedge super dangerous. Yay plot! Except /anyone/ else who wants to run a plot in the Hedge gets told that they can't because metaplot things are going on and it's too dangeroooous. Ok, so as a Changeling who isn't in the metaplot because of timezone or schedule or because of the reason mentioned above, half of my splat's theme is suddenly off limits to me.

I'm also against metaplots meant to entirely /change/ a setting. When people choose to play a MUSH, the setting is a major part of that decision. If you suddenly change the setting to something entirely different via a metaplot, players may find that it's not a place they wish to play. If you make a Superhero mush, don't allow the metaplot to change it into a Zombie mush.

Arkandel

I'm also moving away from big events that involve as many players as possible for multiple reasons.

For starters, the factor mentioned here - that the story ends up spread thin so it means less to the people actually involved - is true, but I think I like the chance to personalize things a bit for the specific players involved. That's something simply impossible when you decide a cinematic blockbuster event.

As usual that creates some issues. Players with a smaller social network might end up being disconnected from things if they're not among the in-crowd who benefits from all this, and that's not cool either. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer to that.

il-volpe

@Arkandel said:

I'm also moving away from big events that involve as many players as possible for multiple reasons.

This could be a rough one -- I like to run some events that could involve everyone. They don't, because not everyone is there or wants to join in at the time, but I want them to be events where anyone who's connection schedule allows them to join in, can.

Three-Eyed Crow

I think a distinction should be drawn there. I don't think massive events are bad, and once in awhile the chaos can be very energizing. I do think staff should do them once in awhile. They just shouldn't be every scene, or an obligation to make every scene as much that as possible.

Thenomain

Once, when I was trying to stretch out with my nerditry, I went to a new LARP-Group that wanted to focus on both RP and system. The first giant event was all-comers, all-day, and I was pretty excited about it. I and my friends all made our sheets and our kinda-costumes and went.

The event turned out to have no plan but "see what happens when we get this many people get together", but they didn't tell us that until it was over.

I didn't go back to that group.

The other y'all-come events I went to had people grandstanding. I don't LARP at all for that reason. If I'm going to waste my time with drama, I want to be able to snark with friends and nosh on chips.

Sometimes—online—those people got upset with me when I mocked their grandstanding (by also grandstanding, yes). It was entirely in-character, but it reflected what I felt about people who felt that actions did not cause reactions.

We got good enough at Changeling Crownings on Haunted Memories that the event would go as such:

Everyone comes, mills, poses in, whatever
Someone says it was time to start
I would generally ignore whatever happens next, because only once was it trying to add to the game
Crowning
See who walks out in protest
Disperse

This was efficient. The first few times, staff tried to make events happen during them, but it caused too much headache. Don't stray from the agenda unless you know what you're doing.

I don't find the point to such events, any more, except for the times where people have to be brought together in a thematic way to find out what happens. A ball, a critical meeting, and so forth. Whatever the scene, be up-front about it. If more is going to happen, warn people so they can plan their evenings around it. Even a simple event such as "see who the latest Staff Friend is" (unless Ernst takes the Crown) takes a few hours. Throwing a chase scene at 10+ players with 1 or 2 staffers is going to be a nightmare.

Where was I? Oh yes. Don't do it.

il-volpe

Haha. Yeah. It's a sort of peeve of mine when people expect every wedding/festival/ball/whatever to also include something totally unexpected and probably violent.

Sponge

@Arkandel said:

Having a metaplot isn't really meant to be about giving people a shot to beat it. To me it mainly means giving characters the opportunity to hook their own stories into a common central theme and a source for plot seeds. It's a framework, not a goal meant to be resolved.

I've been thinking about having regular background metaplot on New Prospect. Given our stance on staff managing RP they would have to be limited to story seeds/hooks. The idea is write up sketches of events that are happening and describe the aspects apparent to each genre. Characters can ignore these as just something that's happening in the city while they focus on their day-to-day, but players can use it as inspiration for TPs.

In principle, this provides an optional framework for game-wide RP. I'm sure this isn't a novel idea and I'm wondering what kind of results people have seen in practice. No one bothering to run with it is one obvious potential outcome. Some players running with it and producing contradictory story is possible but I don't expect it to be a significant issue.

How has this gone in the past?

Arkandel

@il-volpe said:

Haha. Yeah. It's a sort of peeve of mine when people expect every wedding/festival/ball/whatever to also include something totally unexpected and probably violent.

My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite. Someone makes an +event that seems so very ordinary that I expect something cool to happen. It's like... "beach party!". So, okay, I go, and since this is a game of personal horror I figure hey, maybe zombies will come out of the black waves, or maybe an amoeba-formed human-shaped abomination will start absorbing the flesh of horny teenagers.

And, no, it's just a beach party. People pose coming in bikinis and then an hour later everyone idles out. I guess that's a form of personal horror.

Pyrephox

@Arkandel said:

@il-volpe said:

Haha. Yeah. It's a sort of peeve of mine when people expect every wedding/festival/ball/whatever to also include something totally unexpected and probably violent.

My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite. Someone makes an +event that seems so very ordinary that I expect something cool to happen. It's like... "beach party!". So, okay, I go, and since this is a game of personal horror I figure hey, maybe zombies will come out of the black waves, or maybe an amoeba-formed human-shaped abomination will start absorbing the flesh of horny teenagers.

And, no, it's just a beach party. People pose coming in bikinis and then an hour later everyone idles out. I guess that's a form of personal horror.

Yeah, I lean towards this. I don't feel like it necessarily has to be violent or horrific, but I much prefer when big, come-one-come-all social scenes have SOMETHING in way of a plot for people to do while they're there. Zombie Beach Party would be awesome, but I'd be content with 'everyone gets a fragment of a note and has to try and find the people who can put their notes together', or something. Just...SOMETHING.

ThatOneDude

@Arkandel said:

@il-volpe said:

Haha. Yeah. It's a sort of peeve of mine when people expect every wedding/festival/ball/whatever to also include something totally unexpected and probably violent.

My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite. Someone makes an +event that seems so very ordinary that I expect something cool to happen. It's like... "beach party!". So, okay, I go, and since this is a game of personal horror I figure hey, maybe zombies will come out of the black waves, or maybe an amoeba-formed human-shaped abomination will start absorbing the flesh of horny teenagers.

And, no, it's just a beach party. People pose coming in bikinis and then an hour later everyone idles out. I guess that's a form of personal horror.

Hahahahah! I'm with you man, nothing is more weird to me than the "normal" event! Buuuuuut, this goes back to probably the difference between players and the time they have to spend playing.

I use to love events like "Turner Dinner Party" that ends up being some real event exploring the manor. Or as a hunter on the reach going to a rock opera that turns out being a supernatural scenario that the participants need to investigate to figure out how to escape. The worst was "vampire pool party". Just saying !!!

Misadventure

Shouldn't any Event have a purpose such as gathering a sphere or like minded group together, and be used when it is a general invite to everyone who qualifies? So the point is to make connections and play out the myriad themes from mundane to typically arcane for said group?

Or in other words, I get tired of having every meeting/party has zombies if there isn't a world wide zombie plague going on openly. It gets farcical even faster than usual.

On the other hand, my mundane scenes don't ever need a +event.

Bennie

I wait on baited breath for the game that makes a distinction in their systems between an Event and a Social Gathering.

Speed dating, a day at the boardwalk, a wedding, the reception, a dinner, a family picnic, an art show, a new museum exhibit, a trip to the aquarium on coupon day, midnight mass, Changeling crownings, Praxis changeovers, meet-n-greets, girl's night out, strip shows, paintball, rally, summer music festivals in the park, faire, farmer's markets.

All of the above, and more, are fine expressions of what you can choose to do with your time. And every single bit of it should be categorized, advertised, and coded so that like-minded people, who want to express their time in what's essentially a social gathering, be it 3 people, or 300, can do it without:

Lying about what it is to the people who are not interested in the social gathering or spending their time on them.
Falsely advertising about the danger when the only real danger is catty conversation or people storming out in a huff.
Really just want people to watch them, and can't think of any other way to get them other than making it seem something more.
Anyone who is a diceless storyteller should automatically be forced to categorize everything they do as social gathering. (Ok that's just a preference.)

In the meantime, an entire other board, system, etc, should be in place for the Event that involves:

Real danger, real use of dice, real consequences, has subject or material that may have been vetted by Staff through their rules on such Events, involves a desire to see everyone have an impact, be they important people (high Status) or not (no Status).. Of greater importance still, there should be a rating for each one that is adhered to strictly, is contained in the advertising, and which cannot be abused:

The danger is very small, and mostly inconvenient. Citations by the police for your public behavior, for example. Having to pay to have a window repaired, in another. People talking about you later when the Event hits the rumor mill.
A good place for non-voluntary Conditions to be working on you even after the Event, trips to the hospital to get a cast for a broken bone, and so forth.
The danger is about as dangerous as starting a Supernatural is. Hunting gone bad, a walk through the Hedge on the path, a visit to the Underworld or the Shadow, treating with a Spirit or a Ghost, Tussles with powers that may break the Oath or the Masquerade or a Cover, but not irreparably.
Lasting danger or damage. Aggravated wounds. Seriously getting lost for an extended period, or extended hospital stays, extended incarceration at the local jail, real court dates, real reprimands by superiors, lasting damage to the Masquerade, the loss of Territory, or the destruction of a Cover.
Gross possibility of Death.

People's time is precious. Don't waste it. Figure out what you're looking to provide, then advertise it correctly. Don't lie, cheat people, or steal their time. The same holds true in reverse. If the people putting the event on are absolutely not looking for 'drama', then be sure to advertise correctly, and to accept that people who want the 2nd type of Events are not necessarily the people who want the 1st type of Events. But if all the game is providing, is the 1st, and none of the 2nd, maybe start addressing that too.

mietze

I think one of the reasons all the social shit shows up on +event is that there is rarely a very nice, neat coordination tool that is not +event. TR iirc has a private event code but it doesn't send reminders, ect.

I don't like huge social gatherings, I'm the sort of player that doesn't really do well in them. I mean, I don't mind court scenes and the like, and I can find something enjoyable about being there, but a 20 person scene is not one where I can bring my best because I get overwhelmed. (Though I also think a court scene or something like that can be a legitimate +event).

There are some people that really need the public show of activity I suppose, but I bet if there was nice code for private stuff that would send reminders, people would use that too maybe. Since I can't code, I know that'd just be icing, so I've never pitched it because I don't want to make work for people. But I do wonder if it would help.

On scene dangers...

I think that accurately describing a scene's danger is pretty hard sometimes unless you're a railroad ST (no matter what the PCs do they WILL get shot/attacked by things stronger than them) or you have a very close-in-level group. THe most rewarding scenes/plots I've ever run for people have been in the Law sphere on TR and also personal requests tailored to individual people or groups. With Law, given the mortals-to-superfriends/newbie-to-900XP PCs in a mixed bag, gauging challenge is hard. I've had few complaints though because what law does have as its advantage is that most of the time there's a high degree of PC change of the story, different ways to approach the problem, ect. So there can be a very strong element of emotional/mental danger/on-edgedness. And yeah, I always make people roll. I have had the odd complaint about making folks roll for their social skills, but most people are very extremely happy to finally get to use their dice in that arena for high stakes things.

And simply I'm not a railroad ST. I have NPCs statted (and am getting better about adjusting for party level, before that felt like cheating to me). I have some information prewritten, a few ways that I think things will got plotted, but if I'm surprised, I roll with it. I might expect given the people I see signed up that it's going to end up in a firefight, but I have been surpised more than once to see a clever non-combat way to approach things. Or vice versa. So while there was physical danger factored in, sometimes the PCs subvert that. They may not even realize they're doing so.

Sometimes I wonder if that makes folks think that I'm a shitty ST because the violence that was warned about as potential didn't happen.