Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries

[Arkandel]

@pyrephox said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

"Modeling a healthy relationship" is not the point of dramatic, romantic, or comedic fiction, anymore than people ride roller coasters to learn how to drive. Healthy relationships are pretty boring unless you're inside of one, and they don't generally make good, gripping stories that give people emotional catharsis.

Yes, in fiction. If I'm writing a book I can include whatever level of dysfunction I see fit, and no one has much of a right to tell me otherwise; they can not read it, or not that I was wrong in writing it.

In roleplaying that gets awfully tricky really fast. My idea of a dysfunctional IC relationship, which to me OOC can be fun to play out and work towards a resolution, can be full of triggers for you OOC. I can be told I was wrong in insisting you play it out with me.

[Kanye Qwest]

Be concise. Be clear. Do not make it about them. Do not get bogged down. Think "we don't do that here", or "this bothers me, I'd appreciate it if I didn't have to deal with it".

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

I can be told I was wrong in insisting you play it out with me.

I don't think it's quite that black and white though:

"Your character is an emotional train wreck and I can't deal with that. I insist on you toning it down if you want to continue RPing out an IC relationship with my character."

"My character is an emotional train wreck. If you want to continue RPing out an IC relationship with our characters, you have to take the good with the bad."

Neither of these approaches is really a good way of handling things, even if one is driven by "I'm uncomfortable". They're both insisting / making ultimatums, which is a poor approach to take in any collaborative endeavor.

It's really not about right and wrong (unless someone is being out-and-out creepy/offensive) it's more about communication and negotiation.

[Pyrephox]

@faraday I don't know - to me, that says that both of these players will be happier and more comfortable if the particular kind of relationship that their characters are in ends. Neither is wrong, and some people really do enjoy high-drama in their RP relationships, in which case Emotional Wreck PC might be a great fit. Some people really /don't/.

The issue in the above is only if either player somehow views "not continuing in this particular sort of RP relationship" as an OOC punishment or something, and thus refuses to either compromise OR let go.

[faraday]

@pyrephox Oh yes, I agree completely. All I meant was that insisting that somebody change their behavior to suit you is just as bad as insisting that somebody accept your behavior. (Again - unless said behavior is objectively horrible/creepy.) Sometimes the best answer is just for both sides to acknowledge irreconcilable differences.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

I don't think it's quite that black and white though:

"Your character is an emotional train wreck and I can't deal with that. I insist on you toning it down if you want to continue RPing out an IC relationship with my character."

"My character is an emotional train wreck. If you want to continue RPing out an IC relationship with our characters, you have to take the good with the bad."

To be clear: As long as both my partner and I are okay with whatever's happening on the OOC level then I couldn't care less about the characters. It's just not a concern at all on any level. If we're both into cannibalization then I guess someone is about to fry, IC!

The only issues that matter are on the OOC level.

[Pyrephox]

@faraday I disagree that the example you offer is a good example of that. It's absolutely OK in my book to say, "This is what my character is, and I'm not changing them - if you're not okay with that, then this RP relationship should end." As long as you don't throw a temper tantrum OOC when someone takes option B. It's okay to not change the core of your character for someone else...but it's also totally okay for them to decide that means that they aren't interested in playing with you, or playing out a specific thing with you, any further.

[mietze]

I agree , when expressing discomfort or dissatisfaction is used to try to "win" and get your way. But I think you can have situations where that isnt the case (which is what I assumed Faraday meant) and so if you want to negotiate and are up for that ooc, starting off with "change or leave" may not be the best approach. Because that can and does trigger people who would have perhaps worked with you to find something more agreeable or mutually agreed upon to just say "ok then, bye."

Its like starting off a disagreement or annoyance with your spouse or partner by throwing in a "we can just divorce or break up then!"

There are some people whose interpersonal skills are that bad, though, RL and in game and it can be a pretty bad experience to deal with them until they learn to negotiate/fight more...fairly? Constructively?

[surreality]

@mietze said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

There are some people whose interpersonal skills are that bad, though, RL and in game and it can be a pretty bad experience to deal with them until they learn to negotiate/fight more...fairly? Constructively?

This. And really, some folks are not even interested in behaving fairly or constructively because their only goal is 'get what I want'. This is especially true if they know that being an underhanded scumbag will accomplish that end, or be more likely to succeed.

In part, it's because they are think of it as a fight or a contest instead of a conversation. Any time someone makes the mental transition from 'conversation/communication' to 'fight/contest', the whole frame of reference changes dramatically.

I can have a difficult conversation involving extreme differences of opinion with someone without it being a fight, even if the subject matter isn't necessarily comfortable by default. I can fight with someone about it, too -- but the dynamic is completely different when and if I do. The outcome is likely to be vastly different as well. (Spoiler alert: it's almost certainly going to be worse.)

[Arkandel]

@surreality said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

In part, it's because they are think of it as a fight or a contest instead of a conversation. Any time someone makes the mental transition from 'conversation/communication' to 'fight/contest', the whole frame of reference changes dramatically.

It might not be the worst thing about this, but it also doesn't change the conversation only for that person but it can for everyone participating in it.

Take this somewhat harmless example. I'm in a scene with you and Gany. My character says something confrontational IC and yours comes with a great snappy comeback... then Gany says, OOC, "hahah, she put you in your place Arkandel!".

The moment that happens it ruins a lot of that scene for me, as it's reframed from an IC encounter we can all enjoy into an OOC zero-sum game where one person can emerge as the winner as long as the other loses.

When it happens and I start looking at the same RP from this meta-perspective I can very rarely get back into the groove afterwards. I just don't know of a good way to come back from that.

[Ganymede]

@arkandel said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

Take this somewhat harmless example. I'm in a scene with you and Gany. My character says something confrontational IC and yours comes with a great snappy comeback... then Gany says, OOC, "hahah, she put you in your place Arkandel!".

<OOC> Ganymede says, "fuck u both i just shot hot coffee out of my nose"

[faraday]

@mietze said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

I agree , when expressing discomfort or dissatisfaction is used to try to "win" and get your way. But I think you can have situations where that isnt the case (which is what I assumed Faraday meant) and so if you want to negotiate and are up for that ooc, starting off with "change or leave" may not be the best approach. Because that can and does trigger people who would have perhaps worked with you to find something more agreeable or mutually agreed upon to just say "ok then, bye."
Its like starting off a disagreement or annoyance with your spouse or partner by throwing in a "we can just divorce or break up then!"

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. Maybe my example wasn't the best.

[magee101]

@ganymede said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

3. Quid pro quo is disgusting and should be reported. I really care if it is totally in-character; it's disgusting and is one of the sorts of behaviors that should not exist in our hobby.

I am not sure I understand this entirely. I was not even sure what quid pro quo was at first but doing some investigating it appears to be mostly focused around the idea of sexual harassment, mostly in the form of 'If you do this for me I'll get you a promotion' or what ever.

My question though specifically for you is what do you mean by "I really care if it is totally in-character;" If it is taking place in character wouldn't that be part of the point of Roleplay (not saying you have to engage in it yourself and can step away if you want) but isn't that part of roleplay in a way? I am not sure why doing something in character that is slightly skeevy is something that should be reported. (I mean what if sex isn't even involved? What if its quid pro quo on dusting vampires because you got their parking ticket removed?) Just looking for some insight and clarification into your intent by this part of the message.

[Ganymede]

@magee101 said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

My question though specifically for you is what do you mean by "I really care if it is totally in-character;"

That's a typo; I'm sorry. I meant 'I really don't care if it is totally in-character ... '. Thanks for catching that.

I am not sure why doing something in character that is slightly skeevy is something that should be reported. (I mean what if sex isn't even involved? What if its quid pro quo on dusting vampires because you got their parking ticket removed?)

The entire point of the original post was to set up boundaries and hold them against people that want some sort of RP from you. If you're okay with quid pro quo RP, that's fine; as you said, it's not always of a sexual nature. In context, what I meant was "quid pro quo" in a sexual harassment context is not okay, and disgusting, and should be shunted from our hobby. (See previous post re A Weinstein.)

[magee101]

@arkandel said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

@surreality said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

In part, it's because they are think of it as a fight or a contest instead of a conversation. Any time someone makes the mental transition from 'conversation/communication' to 'fight/contest', the whole frame of reference changes dramatically.

It might not be the worst thing about this, but it also doesn't change the conversation only for that person but it can for everyone participating in it.

Take this somewhat harmless example. I'm in a scene with you and Gany. My character says something confrontational IC and yours comes with a great snappy comeback... then Gany says, OOC, "hahah, she put you in your place Arkandel!".

The moment that happens it ruins a lot of that scene for me, as it's reframed from an IC encounter we can all enjoy into an OOC zero-sum game where one person can emerge as the winner as long as the other loses.

When it happens and I start looking at the same RP from this meta-perspective I can very rarely get back into the groove afterwards. I just don't know of a good way to come back from that.

I can get way behind this line of thinking, in regards to a conversation shifting to a fight/contest. I have a really hard time in all forms of communication at being able to tell when someone else has made this transition and if I should be too now or what, and sometimes I can feel the urge/need to make that change myself but then feel confused as to what prompted me to think I needed to make that conversion. Can I just say that communication is extremely difficult and I wish that all of humanity could just say what they meant and not have it mean something else maybe or what ever.

To the point at hand with the topic, pretty much all these guys like @Arkandel and @Ganymede tend to show great examples of what is and isn't appropriate tableside manners at least in regards to actually dealing with other players at the table. I have very few boundaries by choice, because it is just easier for me to be more open than less which has bitten me in the ass in a number of ways throughout the years but surprisingly never in a way that made me feel uncomfortable.

I have only ever had one person try to force unto me an idea of 'you must because I did quid pro quo' etc so forth. Suffice it to say I didn't talk to them again after I gave them a stern 'Have a good day' and just did not respond to any pages, mudmails or other forms of communication. It doesn't stress me out when someone I have put on my 'idgaf about list' tries to get ahold of me, usually it amuses me and then I forget about it.

[Apos]

@faraday said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

@mietze said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

I agree , when expressing discomfort or dissatisfaction is used to try to "win" and get your way.  But I think you can have situations where that isnt the case (which is what I assumed Faraday meant) and so if you want to negotiate and are up for that ooc, starting off with "change or leave" may not be the best approach.  Because that can and does trigger people who would have perhaps worked with you to find something more agreeable or mutually agreed upon to just say "ok then, bye."

Its like starting off a disagreement or annoyance with your spouse or partner by throwing in a "we can just divorce or break up then!"

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. Maybe my example wasn't the best.

Yeah like I get that this is more the root of why a lot of people are reluctant to say something. A lot of times, they like the RP except for X happening, and aren't sure if they can politely ask about X without offending the other person and losing the entire RP dynamic. I get that, and I don't think there's great answers. But I would encourage everyone to go on the assumption the other person is reasonable. If they aren't reasonable, and they don't respond to a very gentle, very polite, very respectful nudge, then it's probably a time bomb and as much as it sucks to lose that, it's still probably better off.

[Roz]

@apos said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

@faraday said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

@mietze said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

I agree , when expressing discomfort or dissatisfaction is used to try to "win" and get your way.  But I think you can have situations where that isnt the case (which is what I assumed Faraday meant) and so if you want to negotiate and are up for that ooc, starting off with "change or leave" may not be the best approach.  Because that can and does trigger people who would have perhaps worked with you to find something more agreeable or mutually agreed upon to just say "ok then, bye."

Its like starting off a disagreement or annoyance with your spouse or partner by throwing in a "we can just divorce or break up then!"

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. Maybe my example wasn't the best.

Yeah like I get that this is more the root of why a lot of people are reluctant to say something. A lot of times, they like the RP except for X happening, and aren't sure if they can politely ask about X without offending the other person and losing the entire RP dynamic. I get that, and I don't think there's great answers. But I would encourage everyone to go on the assumption the other person is reasonable. If they aren't reasonable, and they don't respond to a very gentle, very polite, very respectful nudge, then it's probably a time bomb and as much as it sucks to lose that, it's still probably better off.

Yeah. Sometimes treating a situation as if it's DELICATE AS WATERFORD CRYSTAL and it needs to be HANDLED CAREFULLY can actually make things more awkward. Because it kind of projects to people that you think the situation is awkward and difficult, and thus they should find it awkward and difficult.

Whereas if you treat things like "this is a normal thing and not a big deal," it can often help to keep matters low-key. Which I think is the core of "assume the other person is reasonable." It should be normal to be able to say something like, "Hey, I've actually got some issues RPing about X, can we figure out a way around that?"

Obviously this isn't a FOOLPROOF THING. But the other thing about assuming that the other person will be reasonable is that it, well, lets them disprove that assumption if they're going to. And then you know that they're not a reasonable person and you probably don't want to be RPing with them anymore anyways. It shouldn't be "how can I avoid explosions in order to set my boundaries so that I'm comfortable," it should be, "how do I find reasonable RP partners who I don't have to worry about exploding on me if I have to enforce a boundary."

[mietze]

I think that there are many people who operate under the assumption that "setting boundaries" is confrontational and adversarial. It really isnt. Someone who leads with "either do this for me or I'm kicking you to the curb" is not really boundary setting, they are issuing a reactionary ultimatum potentially in a manipulative way, but most likely in an explosive after bottling it up way.

But as you say. How someone reacts to perceived criticism or being asked politely to not do something speaks volumes. Its valuable info.

[mietze]

To the original-ish point though, boundary setting is not so much about what you do TO or FOR other people. It's more deciding in advance how YOU will react, when someone's behavior starts to feel violating to you, before it gets to the point of being an actual violation..

This is why I don't use the same thought process behind boundary setting that I do towards someone being abusive. That can happen out of left field that someone decides to violate you. It can happen from "friends" or strangers. Once that has been done, I think boundaries are kind of beside the point. They do not prevent abusers from abusing. I think that should be made super clear.

Boundaries will /not prevent abusive people from continuing on with their abusive behavior/. What they can do though is help increase your comfort because you've come up with a plan of action when things start to brush up against issues/behaviors that make you feel extremely uncomfortable. Not that they'll make you immune from having to deal with it. Like you really cannot escape that in interacting with other humans.

Deciding that you will speak up when you feel that you are being belittled, or that you will page or send a mail privately to someone if they are making ooc comments towards you that are unkind or seem to be belittling or that you will check in periodically with someone for reassurance--these are all great and healthy boundaries. They're about actions that you can take to protect yourself and to check yourself before an issue becomes something more than that.

Deciding in the moment that if someone that you have RPed with for months and months about a certain subject or in a certain line of play ask you for it one more time you will demand they change or cut ties since obviously they're not getting the hints you've dropped along the way that you really don't like it--that is a reaction (and probably an understandable one) but you have been violating your own boundary by never directly stating that you don't want this to happen and want it to stop. You should probably expect some surprise/shock/bad feelings from that person because it is hard to be told something you thought the other person liked they've hated this whole time, and they may wonder what else you've been hiding. It may lead to a breach of trust that they feel happened on your end too. It's not going to be comfortable for either of you, but there's no reason a reasonable person can't work it out. It is reasonable they may have mixed feelings for awhile, but you will get what you want (a stop to that behavior) most of the time. It just may not be as comfortable as you'd like it to be Which is okay.

Similarly, someone who responds to a request of "Please don't joke on the ooc channel about PKing my pc or If you have a question or a concern about what I'm doing with this job/requestplot ect I'd like it to be brought to me privately rather than you questioning me about it on pub channel as soon as I log in" or even worse "I really love the relationship we've built between our two PCs but I would like to branch out a bit with our play and not TS/do slice of life/whatever with our PCs for awhile, can we please do X or Y or Z instead to take a little break?" with "ZOMG WELL SINCE I'M SO HORRIBLE I'LL NEVER RP WITH YOU AGAIN AND YOU WILL NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH ME EVER AGAIN!!!!" is clearly not someone with healthy boundaries or probably even capable of discussing that with you. You're going to have to be uncomfortable, but probably they'll no longer be pestering you or making public comments about you. You cannot control them or their feelings. Putting limits to how much of that you will tolerate before speaking up or asking for intervention won't control it either. Nor will it absolve you of discomfort.

Knowing other people don't like you, or that you have inadvertently hurt someone else--is not comfortable. Sometimes it's helpful to have a plan on how you will act/what you will and won't give should your own behavior be brought to light as having hurt or made someone else uncomfortable.

Boundaries just are not magical things. I think they're most valuable for keeping your choices and your own behavior on the up and up.

[Kanye Qwest]

@roz said in Learning how to apply appropriate boundaries:

DELICATE AS WATERFORD CRYSTAL

is this the whitest thing you've ever referenced?