Werewolf 2.0 & Nine Ways It Could Be Streamlined

[Coin]

Actually, the developers have said that the order they picked things to go in the book is the order that, according to their experience and the feedback from their target demographic, is the most common order in which the books are read. This is the reason that, for example, in both Vampire and Werewolf 2e, the Clan and Auspice write-ups come right after the introduction, followed closely by the Covenants and Tribes, innate powers, and then Disciplines and Gifts.

This wasn't an accident. This was by design to present the book in an order aimed at the largest amount of people so that they would read the book from front to back.

It has nothing to do with how important the writers thing something is over something else, or even how important things are to the players in relation to other aspects, but rather what is most interesting to read to the majority of readers when they first get the book.

[Misadventure]

So why is there bad fiction at the front then?

Who are you people?

[Ganymede]

@crusader

Re: Authority

I was commenting on what you wrote here:

Hardly anyone in this thread seems to understand Werewolf: The Forsaken theme.

As you cannot possibly know what others truly know or understand, you cannot judge that they do not understand "Werewolf: The Forsaken" theme. As you lack expertise to opine based on what's been stated, you haven't the authority to make that conclusion. That's what I was talking about.

You're a smart fellow, but your communication levels don't seem to follow. Avoiding making judgments as to others' knowledge will strengthen your arguments.

[HelloRaptor]

Spam:

@Crusader

It's interesting that people are so attached to certain things. The Shadow is not as core to the werewolf thematic experience, as fire is to a vampire, or ghost is to a geist.

The bit you quoted was not specifically about the Shadow. You leading with it was simply the most glaring example of what I was talking about. The removal of Auspices and Tribes as anything meaningful, cutting out forms, virtually everything on your list are symptoms of the same because your arguments for all of them amount to someone wanting to play Twilight-style vampires because when was the last time you really saw sunlight present an actual threat, motivator, or its absence as any kind of real loss to vampire PCs?

While you can probably come up with anectdotal evidence, it's pretty clear that others can do the same for why your claims about Werewolf are pretty much nonsense.

That said, you're missing the point of the quoted bit, which is that you're getting the negative reaction you are because you're presenting this as "Werewolf 2.0's Nine Design Flaws And How I Would Fix Them." which is pretty fucking trollacious when what you really mean is "How To Play American Werewolf In London In WoD." The point was that someone could create a list of 'hacks' to turn Vampire: The Requiem into Twilight in the same sweeping ways you've done here, and if they titled it "Vampire 2.0's Nine Design Flaws And How I Would Fix Them." instead of "How To Play Twilight In WoD."

What's your attachment to Auspices? The Pure don't have them, and I found the lack of Auspices made pack forming easier and more natural. People gravitated to what they wanted to do and not what they felt like they had to. Auspices were only included as a way to make chargen easier for some people, and function like classes. I've only had a chance to see Pure packs form on a mush a couple times, but both times seemed less stressful without deciding who got stuck as the Elodoth, etc.

It's almost as if your anectdotal evidence were not representative of everyone's experiences. Huh. I wonder how that happens.

Auspieces were not only included as a way to make chargen easier for some people. They are a heavily thematic element that ties werewolves to the moon. While it's true that in nwod WW insisted on a dreadfully mechanical homogeneity between its races and their base type (Clan, Auspice, Path, etc), Auspices predate that uniformity. Fighting against or finding harmony with your Auspice, both internally and in the views and expectations of others, is part of being one of the Forsaken. That isn't a bug, it's a feature, and you presenting "Well the Pure don't have them and it's fine." as an argument only further emphasizes that you not only don't get, but were never really interested in getting or playing Werewolf: The Forsaken.

And for the umpteenth time, that's fucking fine. You don't have to get it, or want to get it, or want to play it. But for the love of god, stop getting your panties in a bunch over people objecting to you presenting your ideas as hacks on how to 'fix Werewolf: The Forsaken' and just move on with the fact that what you want to do is build your own Werewolf game that bears only the most superficial resemblance to it. You're not 'fixing' anything, you're not creating 'hacks' to make it a better game, you're trying to create something wholly different, but which also includes people who are lycanthropes.

Notice that earlier while you chose to talk about 'fire' being a more thematic threat to vampires, you were replying to me talking about 'sunlight'. You could strip out the effects sunlight has on vampires completely and odds are it would have absolutely zero effect on the day to day roleplay that takes place on most MU*'s as far as that being a problem for vampires go. It's always night time for vampires IC. At worst you would expand their ability to roleplay with non-vampires. As a 'hack' you could say that they lose the ability to pump their attributes, or use blood to heal, and have lessened access to their Disciplines (-3, minimum 1, maybe) during the day. Vampires have the at night reputation of myth because they prefer not to go out during the day because they're weaker.

You could do this pretty easily, without even disrupting how things work on a MU*, it would be better for players, fit with several 'modern vampire fiction' stories more or less. Outside of roleplaying about how much they miss watching the sun rise or whatever other bullshit vampires wax poetic about, it serves virtually no purpose except to enforce a theme on people playing vampire.

Which is entirely the fucking point.

If you do that, you're taking a big step away from Vampire: The Requiem. If you strip Auspices of their meaning, make them labels applied to behavior instead of roles set down by ties to the spirit of the moon, you're taking a big step away from Werewolf: The Forsaken. Getting rid of spirits entirely, when the spirit mythology of why werewolves exist and why they're the Forsaken in the first place, and a chunk of what their entire purpose is, is another big step. Almost every one of your nine 'hacks' is another step, and what you're left with is not Werewolf.

You want to play Lycanthrope: The Wolfman. Saying it's a 'fix' for mistakes made in Werewolf: The Forsaken is like saying a car is a fix for a motorcycle's 'design flaw' of not including room for four people. What you want is something completely different, even if they both fall under the umbrella of 'vehicles' or 'machines with wheels' and 'travel on roads'.

Not to harp on the Shadow aspect specifically, just using it as an example of how this could have gone:

You: Spiritual aspects aren't really relevant to what I want from playing Lycanthrope: The Wolfman, so we'll strip all of that out and make accomodations for where it intersects with the system. I'd like to make a game about the visceral struggle between feral instinct and humanity, not SPIRIT COPS.

Everyone Else: Interesting, tell us more.

Instead you went:

You: Werewolf: The Forsaken makes a bunch of mistakes, like all the stupid spirit stuff that nobody cares about, and auspices and tribes are really dumb and/or unrealistic, also LOL NATIVE AMERICAN STUFF. Here's how you fix all of that if you want to play Werewolf: The Forsaken the way it should really be played. Also this is what I do for tabletop but it's totally a fix for all the MU* problems.

Everyone Else: What the fuck? That's not even... what? O_O

You: You guys just don't get it! White Wolf writers! Chronicles! I WAS HEADSTAFF BEFORE YHWH MADE IT COOL!

Nobody gives two fucks if you want to make a game that isn't Werewolf: The Forsaken, but uses bibs and bobs from Werewolf for its mechanics. But even someone like me, who dislikes Werewolf, thinks your presentation and assertion that you're just 'fixing' things is absolute shit.

I'd like you to be honest with yourself, Raptor. And consider this for a moment in a serious voice, and not a jokey voice.

In all of your time playing, have you ever thought that staff really handled a pack's totem spirits, territory, Renown (oh, the various shitstorms about Renown) or Morality checks particularly well? Or has it mostly been either ignored, arbitrary or often disputed?

Yeah, back when sphere staff were actually responsible for and took time to run plots and stories for their spheres. Not morality checks (or their owod equivalents) quite so much, but that's a larger system issue.

But like Sunny, I know you're only here because of the Detroit thread.

For reference, I don't give a fuck about the Detroit thread or whatever it is you're yammering on about, and I'm also tired of watching you repeat yourself over and over about how some shit was in a mini-semi-official-online-only-chronicle-pdf and thus we should totally not mock you for thinking it's a good idea. There's a bunch of alternate-reality style suggestions for the game lines, some officially published, some semi-official pdf things, and guess what? Some of them are absolute shit that would not at all support what people are interested in. I think there's one for vampire where all vampires are just roaming packs of violent blood hungry monsters, but to most people that's not Vampire: The Requiem.

It's funny how those that disagree with me seem to eventually preface their posts with 'I don't care about werewolf'. Okay, so why are you even here? How are you even invested in storytelling or running a werewolf sphere for the majority of people who aren't knowledgeable veterans?

I may not like to play werewolf, but I've enjoyed playing with werewolves, even staffed for them at one time or another.

That's the first paragraph of the introduction. The Shadow and spirits aren't even mentioned.

I guess griping about the Shadow stuff isn't as played out as you claimed, enh? Maybe the whole problem here is that you only read the first paragraph of any given section? I can see how you'd get to where you are from that. If you keep reading the introduction, you'll find under 'Duality and Edges' (the second bolded title under 'THEMES' after The Wolf Must Hunt), you find another of those pesky paragraphs you have so much trouble with:

W2.0, pg8:
You’re born to the world of Flesh, the world of meat and stone. You’re an inheritor of the world of Spirit, a land of animism and ephemera. The two don’t mix — at least, they really shouldn’t. Flesh should cleave to flesh, and spirit should cleave to spirit. If only it were that easy. Humans cross to the Shadow by accident or stolen knowledge. Spirits cross to the physical world to bolster their power or hide from other spirits. You can step between both worlds, so you can return your prey to its proper place.

Gee, right there in the introduction, under themes, it mentions the Shadow and spirits.

So before you claim that people claim that you are taking the game in a non-nwod werewolf direction...You should really read the nwod werewolf 2.0 book.

[Thisnameistaken]

Werewolf: The Forsaken without/with less focus on the Shadow, Auspices no longer determined by the moon/spirit, more focus on being half animal than half spirit...

Aren't we talking about Changing Breed but with wolves?

[HelloRaptor]

Pretty much.

You'd be hard pressed to limit it to only nine design flaws in Changing Breeds, though.

[Thenomain]

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

[Misadventure]

Changing Breeds Flaw #1: Not enough cephalopds.

[Miss Demeanor]

Changing Breeds Flaw #2: ALL THE GODDAMN SPECIES IN THE WORLD OKAY FOR PLAY. Fuck you, White Wolf.

[Coin]

For what it's worth, the Changing Breeds book actually presents non-uratha werewolves (The Vargr, IIRC) as "non-Uratha wererwolves". So, yeah.

I went and found it. It's deliciously vague; totally bland enough to do whatever with it. Like they were literally aiming it at people who wanted to play 'werewolves without all that other stuff'. Changing Breeds, p. 156:

Time and mystery obscure the origin of the Vargr. They have no ties with Father Wolf, and claim none. Some speak of a time when sound became form and a great howl spread throughout the young world and coalesced into the first werewolves. Others claim descent from Fenris Wolf (particularly if they favor Germanic or Scandinavian descent), while still others cite the legend of Asena, the small blue-maned wolf who nurtured a lost baby and then birthed a half-human/half-wolf cub that founded the Turkish people. Others simply shake their heads as if to say, “I’m here, and that’s all I know.” The Uratha call themselves the Forsaken; the Vargr claim their legacy as the Forgotten.

Little on the nose at the end, but whatevs.

[crusader]

@HelloRaptor said:

An ass reaming

Fair enough.

@Thenomain said:

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

Contrary to how HR presented it, I actually didn't attempt to prove anything I said, based merely on headstaff experience anywhere. I've been around too long to see the dead end that is, and I think HR only resorted to it out of reflex. (He did have a point about me bringing up the Chronicles pdf more than once). I simply acknowledged doing it, and that it influenced a lot of my opinions about the majority of casuals. I then asked if anyone else had ever staffed or headstaffed a sphere, and what their experience was with the majority of players.

If I'm going to use anyone's headstaff experience as an example, it would be AQ, since I think he did it as best as could be unrealistically expected. I've been unimpressed with everyone else since. Including my own efforts.

If you want more ammunition, you're going to have to look for it somewhere else. I might have chosen a bad title, and I might be on the wrong side of history, much like Truman at Yalta, when it comes to the Shadow debate, but I'm not as out of touch as you'd like to believe.

Which I find especially amusing, since you think removing the Shadow from Werewolf would make it more combatty, when the Shadow pretty much only exists to set up owod style battles with monsters worse than werewolves. (Which again, Vampire doesn't suffer from, and which further dilutes werewolf as the pinnacle or apex predator in the roleplaying experience).

HR had some good points, and even though he's off about a couple things, I'll gladly accept my lashes because I know where he's coming from. You, Theno, have yet to offer anything even mildly constructive.

[crusader]

@Coin said:

For what it's worth, the Changing Breeds book actually presents non-uratha werewolves (The Vargr, IIRC) as "non-Uratha wererwolves". So, yeah.

I went and found it. It's deliciously vague; totally bland enough to do whatever with it. Like they were literally aiming it at people who wanted to play 'werewolves without all that other stuff'. Changing Breeds, p. 156:

Time and mystery obscure the origin of the Vargr. They have no ties with Father Wolf, and claim none. Some speak of a time when sound became form and a great howl spread throughout the young world and coalesced into the first werewolves. Others claim descent from Fenris Wolf (particularly if they favor Germanic or Scandinavian descent), while still others cite the legend of Asena, the small blue-maned wolf who nurtured a lost baby and then birthed a half-human/half-wolf cub that founded the Turkish people. Others simply shake their heads as if to say, “I’m here, and that’s all I know.” The Uratha call themselves the Forsaken; the Vargr claim their legacy as the Forgotten.

Little on the nose at the end, but whatevs.

The interesting thing about the Vargr, is that their only other form, IIRC, was something like urshul. What I didn't like, was that they could stay in that form as long as possible.

In my own ancedotal, circumstantial and freely discardable experience...the most interesting and exciting werewolf combat comes with presenting the players with a stark choice:

They could conceivably overwhelm virtually any foe they might come across - even a police SWAT team, or trade blows with a vampiric elder - but it's a matter of timing, or else they'll suffer hideous consequences. When left with only hishu or urhan forms, they have to time when to go battle form, because then they have 6-8 turns to do what needs to be done.

If they can't resolve the situation in the next 6-8 turns, then they're potentially fucked. They either shift back and find themselves out-stretched (and potentially naked in ripped and torn clothes), or else go on a death rage, with all its unspeakable fade-to-black esque consequences.

With Urshul and Dalu (especially Dalu) it's more a matter of building up fighting merits and methodically taking apart the opposition. Without Dalu, I noticed that players rarely took any fighting merits, beyond the firearms one, for use in hishu.

EDIT: Another great thing about forcing players to rely on Wolf-Man as their primary battle form, is that fights go so much faster, in a Down and Dirty fashion. I really hated the elaborate 2-3 hour combat scenes with the Dalu Rahus pulling out every obscure fighting style merit, Kung Fu or Krav Maga (complete with punch daggers of course), from the Armory pdfs. It also, strangely enough, seemed to make the auspices more equal. With more time spent in social situations, the Elodoth and Cahalith had more to do. The Irraka player had always been a stealth maestro (they had no Ithaeur).

I want combat to be a 'Zero to Sixty' type experience, flipping the switch from normal to supernatural savagery. Not a gradual escalation from 'small man' into 'big man with punch dagger'. And maybe, once or twice a chapter, into gauru. When the players took gauru before, it was almost as if they were admitting defeat, as dalu/urshul couldn't cut it.

[HelloRaptor]

@Crusader

Contrary to how HR presented it, I actually didn't attempt to prove anything I said, based merely on headstaff experience anywhere. I've been around too long to see the dead end that is, and I think HR only resorted to it out of reflex.

I used headstaff for emphalulz, but you've mentioned your staffing and game running experience with folks numerous times. You're trying to emphasize that you have experience and aren't just theorycrafting this shit, but in trying to defend your idea you've maybe repeated yourself more than you think. Or maybe it just feels that way.

Which I find especially amusing, since you think removing the Shadow from Werewolf would make it more combatty, when the Shadow pretty much only exists to set up owod style battles with monsters worse than werewolves.

The Shadow isn't much different than the material world as far as plot and story goes: Most of the things you come into conflict with don't like you very much, and may well devolve into combat unless you take pains to find another way to deal with it.

I might have chosen a bad title

Knowing is half the battle. I know I've said this before, but I can't really emphasize enough that the WoD is set up the way it is so that you can run all manner of shit. I don't actually think the game you're describing is a bad one (though one I'm personally even less interested in than W:tF, since I do like the mythology, spiritualism, and auspice/tribe stuff), but I do very much think that what you seem to want out of Werewolf: The Fallen is not really the game most of the people I know who love Werewolf are playing, nor what Werewolf is written as.

Lycanthrope: The Wolfman, or whatever you want to call it, is not a bad thing to want to play. From a strictly werewolf-horror perspective, it's certainly more true to 'werewolf' source material than W:tF is. I just don't think that's a compelling argument to make in saying that W:tF is designed poorly, because it's the way it is on purpose.

When left with only hishu or urhan forms, they have to time when to go battle form, because then they have 6-8 turns to do what needs to be done.

If they can't resolve the situation in the next 6-8 turns, then they're potentially fucked.

If your players can't resolve a combat in 6-8 turns regardless of their forms, you must run some really, really long combats. O_O

With Urshul and Dalu (especially Dalu) it's more a matter of building up fighting merits and methodically taking apart the opposition. Without Dalu, I noticed that players rarely took any fighting merits, beyond the firearms one, for use in hishu.

Yes, imposing game mechanics to push players into the choices you want them to make seems awesome. What was that about Auspices again?

I really hated the elaborate 2-3 hour combat scenes with the Dalu Rahus pulling out every obscure fighting style merit, Kung Fu or Krav Maga (complete with punch daggers of course), from the Armory pdfs.

There's so much wrong with this. I mean, it certainly emphasizes what you want to emphasize, I guess, which is werewolves only ever being able to fight as werewolves but god damn.

It also, strangely enough, seemed to make the auspices more equal. With more time spent in social situations, the Elodoth and Cahalith had more to do.

It sounds like your groups are weirdly binary. Do half the players just sit out of any given encounter? Oh shit, combat, Elodoth and Cahalith better sit it out? Social times, park the Rahu in the corner? That's just... what?

Werewolves of any stripe have ways of contributing to both combat and social scenes, the only thing that should change is who has the spotlight in terms of being a badass at whatever they're doing. If that isn't the case, the problem isn't Werewolf, it's those players. The Storyteller is responsible for creating plots that will involve opportunities for both (and other) types of scenes. The same holds for spirit stuff, really.

When the players took gauru before, it was almost as if they were admitting defeat, as dalu/urshul couldn't cut it.

Yeah, it's almost as if they were playing Werewolf: The Forsaken, where assuming gauru form is supposed to be your last resort, for several reasons. Again, this is a feature, not a bug.

[crusader]

I don't think my groups were exceptional in one way or another, either the one I grew up with storytelling for until I moved away, or the group I play with now.

The first group was purely what you would expect from guys that had grown up playing owod, D&D and even West End games together. There's always a few combat hoss types, one or two social and a sneaky one.

Most such groups have 1-2 players that tend to monopolize all combat situations, and build solely around excelling at them. It wasn't that the rest sat it out, it's just that they clearly brought less to the table when everything got pushed towards violent solutions. But come on, HR. I know I don't need to explain this to you.

In any case, it's true I might have pushed them out of their comfort zone, but they all came around to liking the game more without dalu and urshul. That's purely anecdotal evidence, but I think a few skeptical people would be surprised if they gave it a try. And again, having the dalu or urshul safety net does dilute the primal horror of shapeshifting.

The group I storytell for now, is mostly RPG newbies. They did great at vampire, because it's more or less exactly what you expect from being familiar with various media, as has been telegraphed to us our entire lives (more or less). They did not need to radically immerse themselves and memorize new and unfamiliar concepts that were layered onto vampire (what if all vampires for example, were also ghost hunters, and learned their disciplines from ghosts? And if the ghost world had an incredibly complex hierarchy they had to navigate and understand) They could focus on the mechanics and their character's own struggles.

What struck me is that the 'newbie' group was not appreciably different from half the people you find in any given MUSH online. Especially those that haven't been doing this since owod was a thing.

[HelloRaptor]

@crusader

And again, having the dalu or urshul safety net does dilute the primal horror of shapeshifting.

You've said this a few times now, and I admit I'm kind of puzzled. I'm not as well versed in Werewolf as most people who've commented in this thread, but is that really even a thing? I mean, outside of for a specific character with a particular Harmony rating, or first changers who are just figuring out what's what?

Is 'shapeshifting = primal horror' even a thing for werewolves, or just something you think should be a thing? A quick glance through Werewolf didn't find me any answers one way or another.

Edit: No sarcasm/mockery here, I'm interested in the answer.

[crusader]

@HelloRaptor said:

Is 'shapeshifting = primal horror' even a thing for werewolves, or just something you think should be a thing? A quick glance through Werewolf didn't find me any answers one way or another.

Edit: No sarcasm/mockery here, I'm interested in the answer.

In all seriousness, the books, or at least the Forsaken 2.0 pdf, goes on at some length (even more than I have!) about the need to play up the horror and the surreality between flipping the switch from 'man' to wolf, or terrifying wolf-man...with all of its attendant sensory overload and savage violence.

I'm stepping entirely outside whatever opinions I have on the matter. This is simply a sincere summary of what the book itself says.

One of the main themes discussed is that for a werewolf, half of the horror/violence is not external but internal. That the damage you can wreak on those around you should be as terrifying, in some ways, to the character/player as to those that might be on the brunt end of it. That this violence should be heightened and called attention to by the violent, bone-cracking, gut-churning contortions of their shape changing. Something so inhuman, that it drives onlookers to mindless fear. A werewolf character and its player should be equally horrified at the risk of losing self-control. (A favorite White Wolf trope).

Death Rage, which is further emphasized in Forsaken 2.0, and made even easier to slide into, and given much more consequences (and even mechanically tweaked as to make it more attractive, with many gifts that cost essence becoming free while in death rage), is the central game mechanic behind this theme. Forsaken 2.0 actually gives us two stages of death rage...the full berserk rage itself, and when you're on edge, and needing to constantly make self-control rolls or fly into it.

Again. If you think I have a tendency to repeat things ad nauseum, then you haven't read the Forsaken 2.0 pdf. They pretty much hang their hat on the conceit of in werewolf, the greatest horror being one's own terrible capacity for blind, unthinking violence.

My opinion begins below:

The primary risk of flying into death rage - provided you're not overly liberal on demanding resolve+composure rolls for every little insult - is that a player will try and eke out an extra turn of gauru form in combat. I like this way better, because the player then has no one to blame but himself. It's his agency at work, and his choices. He made the conscious decision to try and stay in his 'Wolf-Man' form longer, and the consequences ring truer for having no one to blame.

They go on mechanically at some length, to make gauru as attractive as possible. To make it a first resort. The Wolf-Man battle form in Forsaken 2.0 is vastly more powerful (on an order of exponetial magnitude) vs the Forsaken 1.0 form. You heal all non-agg damage a round. Enemies get like half their Defense. It's intense.

But it's still undercut by the inclusion of dalu/urshul who serve very little purpose in the grand scheme of things. They are 'safe' forms, with only benefits attached and no real risk of losing self control. It encourages a more blase, toolbox like approach to one's shapeshifting. It becomes banal, and rings hollow when they devote repeated paragraphs to how storytellers should play up the bone-cracking, flesh-displacing horror of changing forms, and how players should always be reminded of how bizarre and strange it is. That's hard to do when they're changing forms 20+ times a night. Ultimately, hishu and urhan lose out. The two forms that DO have immensely strong thematic components. Why be a wolf, when you can be a big strong wolf?

In the same way, I think they undercut the conceptual theme of the werewolf's true monster being themselves, by adding a bunch of even more horrific Shadow-related monsters for them to fight.

It's true that Forsaken 2.0 does mitigate this aspect of the game already. In fact, the Bone Shadows are the only tribe with a duty to hunt spirits and most werewolves will never enter the Shadow. In many ways, Bone Shadows are the Uratha of Forsaken 1.0. You can't even step over at loci anymore.

So Forsaken 2.0 already emphasizes Wolf-Man and de-emphasizes the Shadow. I pretty much just took it to a Mountain Dew-esque extreme. So as to not clutter up my player's brain bandwidth with themes that felt already half left by the wayside, and only lingering for the benefit of veterans.

[Thenomain]

@crusader said:

@Thenomain said:

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

Contrary to how HR presented it, I actually didn't attempt to prove anything I said, based merely on headstaff experience anywhere.

That's ... unexpectedly paranoid.

If you want more ammunition

... creepily paranoid, even.

You, Theno, have yet to offer anything even mildly constructive.

I'm not your monkey on the end of the rope here to dance when you grind your box. If you have the time to bang out five paragraphs of reading into the three lines I've said all thread, cool. I have work to do.

---

For everyone else:

@Thenomain said:

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

Anyone know where Crusader has headstaffed? Dinos being dinos and all, some of us should know. Thanks.

[Arkandel]

Not that the thread had ridiculous amounts of potential to begin with, but at this point we're stretching the definition of 'mildly constructive' even for our non-lofty standards.

[crusader]

@Thenomain said:

@crusader said:

@Thenomain said:

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

Contrary to how HR presented it, I actually didn't attempt to prove anything I said, based merely on headstaff experience anywhere.

That's ... unexpectedly paranoid.

If you want more ammunition

... creepily paranoid, even.

You, Theno, have yet to offer anything even mildly constructive.

I'm not your monkey on the end of the rope here to dance when you grind your box. If you have the time to bang out five paragraphs of reading into the three lines I've said all thread, cool. I have work to do.

---

For everyone else:

@Thenomain said:

I think I missed it in the long thread; Where has he Headstaffed? Thanks.

Anyone know where Crusader has headstaffed? Dinos being dinos and all, some of us should know. Thanks.

It's a well worn truth in the MUSH community that a decent coder can get away with more than their fair share of dickery.

If you're really curious, send me a private message. Otherwise, try and follow your own policies. I know that's a bit tough for you, sometimes.

[Ganymede]

@crusader

Why not just let us all know? I can provide a comprehensive list of my own credentials, which includes some really, really, really shitty places.