Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion

[Arkandel]

This is the discussion thread for the Intersectional MU* community.

[Ghost]

[Pandora]

How will your community handle the members that don't admit to biases regarding sex, nationality, health, or income, but are still raging assholes? Is it still a safe space if people are snide, two-faced, or judgmental, but not based on any factors other than the other person's personality?

[Kestrel]

@Pandora said in Intersectional MU* Community:

How will your community handle the members that don't admit to biases regarding sex, nationality, health, or income,

We don't have any members (currently) that don't admit to having these biases. We're a small bunch so far (we just hit 11 members), but everyone up until now seems to have joined with the understanding that they're imperfect and not looking to claim otherwise, but looking to do better and support each other.

but are still raging assholes? Is it still a safe space if people are snide, two-faced, or judgmental, but not based on any factors other than the other person's personality?

I mean, you know me, and I can be like this, but I ask that at least within this server people leave that at the door. No one's perfect, contentious drama happens, but this community just isn't the place for it.

We currently have the following rules for our Discord server.

Judgement in particular I'm not cool with. It's not the place for purity testing. See rule #2. People need to be able to engage conversations in good faith to be in this community. That means both listening earnestly when someone's speaking about their experiences, and being patient with people making honest mistakes. The referral system exists to try and keep out trolls and ensure this remains possible.

If people use this community as a tool to harass, manipulate, control or BS other players, they'll just be shown the door. Regardless of anything else I have no tolerance for mind-games.

[Thenomain]

As a reminder, discussions are now supposed to take place somewhere but the Advertisement thread.

[Tempest]

@Pandora said in Intersectional MU* Community:

but are still raging assholes? Is it still a safe space if people are snide, two-faced, or judgmental, but not based on any factors other than the other person's personality?

Strange question, considering that all those factors seem to apply to the community's creator, judging from the last thread.

Odds are this community won't do much of anything and won't be any 'better' than any other random group of people on the internet. They're not going to go purge the Azazello's or Rex's of the world who are actual problems.

They're going to sit around and knitting circle about somebody who took a position they wanted on some game or is TSing the person they want to fuck or w/e, and probably harass that person.

[Arkandel]

@Tempest You earned that upvote.

[Roz]

@Arkandel said in Intersectional MU* Community:

@Tempest You earned that upvote.

This is not a GREAT look for you in the Ad section with the current rules.

[Arkandel]

@Roz said in Intersectional MU* Community:

@Arkandel said in Intersectional MU* Community:

@Tempest You earned that upvote.

This is not a GREAT look for you in the Ad section with the current rules.

You are right. I'll fix it. My bad.

[Pandora]

@Tempest said in Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion:

Strange question, considering that all those factors seem to apply to the community's creator, judging from the last thread.

I assume that one's actual personality is meant to be left at the door, and the fake nicey-nice is meant to happen on the server. I just wondered what would happen if and when that facade crumbles in the face of a real disagreement in the ranks.

They're going to sit around and knitting circle about somebody who took a position they wanted on some game or is TSing the person they want to fuck or w/e, and probably harass that person.

I assume as much, and I've voiced my concern on this front. Only time will tell and you've got to give a new concept enough rope to swing for the moon - or hang itself.

@Kestrel said in Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion:

We currently have the following rules for our Discord server.

What happens when someone breaks an unenforceable rule like #6? Or just in general? What crosses the line from 'honest mistake' into 'petty BS'? Who decides who stays and who goes? Is it a democracy? Will people be voted off the island if they're unpopular? Or is it a dictatorship, where people who don't conform to your standard of 'nice' are fucked even if they have something worth saying?

Like, I'd personally never be vouched for by the crowd I expect this server to attract, even though I have plenty to say on the topic of discrimination in games and what can be done about it & have never actively discriminated against anyone on any basis other than being willfully stupid as hell.

[Prototart]

oh good

how the community has suffered for lack of a pillowfort

[Pandora]

@Prototart said in Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion:

oh good

how the community has suffered for lack of a pillowfort

This isn't even vaguely constructive, let alone mildly.

[surreality]

@Pandora True as hell, though.

[Ghost]

“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.” - Marcus Aurelius

[mietze]

I keep hearing off and on through the last handful of years about private channels on discord, slack, ect for people to make fun of other players, coordinate stuff across IC/OOC lines, ect. One could argue since we are a minority of people in the community we are a bit of the same, but just like all the other groups, we think that we're not or have a good reason for what we do. I think the pillowforts have always been in the muing community and likely will remain.

I also think (and have read a similar tale MANY MANY times) that while yes, there are often purposeful bad actors in them--most of the people who are on those things are bit/tertiary circle people, who just think they're joining a chatting place with people they like--and then aren't always sure of how to pull out of it when things start to go in a way that they're really not comfortable with. Or they get turned on (Before or after leaving it or speaking up). I am not going to skim through thousands of posts here, but did that not happen with a few really really bad Arx discord groups (and yes, before anyone gets upset, I know they were not sanctioned by staff)? I know of a few slack groups that I heard about after they blew up or hurt someone on various games. I think on any competitive or large game (maybe even small non competitive ones too, but I cannot say I've ever heard anything about someone discovering a whole slew of private communications in a group about them on a place that isn't) people start out by trying to set up easier/off game communication for probably good intentions, but it's not long before it can go off the rails for many people. Including people who are good people too.

[Pandora]

Tangential to the stated point of the 'community' but still relevant:

Unsanctioned, staff-absent forums/servers are a breeding ground for misinformation, sometimes well-meaning bad advice, and sometimes manipulative BS. It's bad enough when it's just one private server of one new game that's gone fucking sideways(don't ask) but the idea of a bunch of people on a bunch of games zerging with an agenda sounds like a fucking wave of headache heading our way. I've said let's wait and see and I do intend to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I also said 'let's wait and see' before Hurricane Isaac had me grilling the meat in my powerless freezer in my backyard in 109 degree New Orleans weather while standing on a ladder because my house and yard were fucking flooded.

TLDR; in case it was missed the first several times: I have not yet been presented with a realistic scenario for how this community isn't going to suck, and I would like a mildly constructive discussion of how this is going to work other than some lofty honor-system of vague, unenforceable rules.

[Auspice]

@Pandora

I feel like the reasoning is supposed to be 'The people allowed on the server are so good and perfect they'd never ever do anything bad.' or something along those lines.

[mietze]

I do think that is a significant risk for any message board. (There have been MSB word of mouth game overwhelming incidents as well, though without a specific agenda other than Hey New Shiny!)

As for creating a community of relatively safe people that doesn't turn into a major dumpster fire--I can think of two that I have experience.

The first was a chat group of a bunch of women in their 30s/40s+ at the time who enjoyed the storytelling/RP of the people that they invited (anyone was allowed to loop anyone else in). It wasn't really a discussion about the game itself but more just a friendly chat about family and personal stuff that one felt kind of weird about trying to talk about with people who weren't in the same rough phase of life. No planning of game stuff went on in there that I ever saw. But it did mean I had some contacts of non-crazy, highly relatable, highly collaborative folks that I could reach out to if I just wanted a RP scene or a connection that I knew I wouldn't have to fret over as to whether it would involve TS pressure or ick factor.

The second was something very similar but a FB group.

Both even at their most active we are taking maybe one 15-30 min slow conversation every couple of days or longer. Usually if game stuff was going to be discussed it would just be through pages on a game with an individual (for arranging RP or a bg connection or something).

I think high volume, game or complaint focused stuff tends to be very very VERY different. For a variety of reasons.

[Prototart]

@Pandora said in Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion:

@Prototart said in Intersectional MU* Community - Discussion:

oh good

how the community has suffered for lack of a pillowfort

This isn't even vaguely constructive, let alone mildly.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

literally nothing I've seen of the behavior and statements of the people involved gives me any reason at all to believe this'll be anything more than pillowfort 2: pillowfortier, w the same noxious blend of geek social fallacy run rampant, npd, and lets-play-pretend social justice as a mask for abusive behavior hundreds of times worse and more damaging than anything they use as a thin pretense to justify their shit

i constructively suggest we all try to get their cringey wod fanfic published as soon as we can so they wander off rather than just hope lightning strikes twice

is that better

[surreality]

@Auspice Except when they're not, because nobody's perfect!

(So it's OK for them to not be perfect, but there's an eagerness to hyper-scrutinize, vet, and judge everyone else.)

I would like to think this will go well! ...but while I am a starry-eyed optimist enough to think some useful discussion could have come from the other threads in spite of everything, I'm not that huge a sucker.