Sexuality: IC and OOC

[Auspice]

@WildBaboons said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

@Prototart if within the first five poses you weren't either doing a helicopter or walking funny to get the boys unstuck from your leg probably were doing it wrong.

Ladies, gather 'round, I will reveal the secret to playing a man.......

Grunting.

[Arkandel]

I think to a lot of people - I really don't think it's such a small minority - every MUSH is basically a dating simulation.

Sure, you might be playing vampires, nobles, werewolves or space pirates but that's just the context; the point is to find a romantic/sexual partner and use the setting's trappings to enhance the experience. Is it TS? Do we have fangs? Then we bite each other, yay! Can we shapeshift? Time to get furry with it, yay! Mecha-suits? Uh, let's read the manual first but yay!

And there's nothing wrong with that. As long as they're not nagging, coercing or forcing anyone else into it there's no harm no matter how some people complain about folks in locked rooms and how they detract from the game; it's their playing time too. As long as it doesn't actively get in the way of anyone else's RP then that's fine.

My only objection otherwise is in agreement with @Sparks - there is so much focus on it the characters' arc can only burn out. It's both all too common but also not sustainable to see PCs hit the grid then find their soulmates in two weeks or less (sometimes much less); where do you go from there, when your goal was the romance itself? Well, you won the game - now what?

[Prototart]

@Arkandel said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

I think to a lot of people - I really don't think it's such a small minority - every MUSH is basically a dating simulation.

100% true

[BetterJudgment]

@Pacha – I'm a gay man and also played on Shadows of Isildur. That game was and is fucked on many levels, and that certainly was one of them.

I'm back casually playing again, and I only play gay or adamantly asexual male characters. I'm neither an actor nor a writer, so I can't really go too far outside. Really, the most comfortable character for me, and the one who I probably played best, was a Silvan Elf on Elendor who was as elvish (i.e. non-human) and non-sexual as possible. Too bad that there was someone else playing there who kept wanting to involve their very unthematic "elf child" character in hurt/cuddle/comfort RP with mine (ick).

[insomniac7809]

@Rinel said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

The bias I've seen in MU* dom against women playing men is interesting to me. My non-MU* RP history has basically consisted of most of my RP acquaintances saying "lol dude why do you keep making female characters are you gay or something."

Most MUSHes have (or have had) a majority female playerbase. Most in-person RP is (or has been) a majority male playerbase. Neither of these are 100% true and I think the latter, at least, has been changing for a while, but still.

@Aria and I both did some of our earliest online RP on a predominantly male space (the White Wolf hosted javachat games), and those were majority male, so the crossgender RP sterotype was a dude playing a lesbian in a leather body suit with tits out to here. (This was when you still got 'there are no women on the internet' jokes.) Then I went onto MU* gaming and the steriotype was a woman playing a waifish yaoi twink.
@saosmash said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

Like, sorry for double post, but to clarify, my point was more that manic pixie dreamgirl is one of those tropes that is definitely popularized based on its relevance to MEN, and I don't doubt that dudes playing lesbians often think they are being "chic" about this, but I've seen female players fall into the same trap. I think the extensive appearance of the trope in all forms of media contributes to that a great deal. People thinking that it's a "right" way to play a woman because that's how they seem women portrayed all over the place -- even people who should know better.

...is it awful that one of the concepts that's been bouncing in my head for a while is an Acanthus Manic Pixie Nightmare Girl? Like, a free spirit who barges into people's lives, does her best to convince them to ignore things like 'oblgations' or 'property rights' until she gets it into her head to fuck off and leave them stranded three states from home with an empty bank account and a court date?

[Ninjakitten]

@insomniac7809 said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

@Aria and I both did some of our earliest online RP on a predominantly male space (the White Wolf hosted javachat games), and those were majority male, so the crossgender RP sterotype was a dude playing a lesbian in a leather body suit with tits out to here. (This was when you still got 'there are no women on the internet' jokes.) Then I went onto MU* gaming and the steriotype was a woman playing a waifish yaoi twink.

I think this may be more time period than venue. When I started on MU*s where it was relevant, also in 'men are men, women are men, children are FBI agents' days, the crossgender stereotype was dudes playing over-sexualised lesbians too (Lesbian Asian Schoolgirls, anyone?). A 5-10 years later is when the 'woman-played yaoi waif' stereotype* rose to equal prominence, IME.

...is it awful that one of the concepts that's been bouncing in my head for a while is an Acanthus Manic Pixie Nightmare Girl? Like, a free spirit who barges into people's lives, does her best to convince them to ignore things like 'oblgations' or 'property rights' until she gets it into her head to fuck off and leave them stranded three states from home with an empty bank account and a court date?

I have only the vaguest idea what an Acanthus is, but I'm still entirely in favour of this.

* I've played a bunch of bi and gay dudes (and also played straight and asexual ones and women, but those characters aren't that relevant here) and at least one definitely hit 'waif' pretty well, so, y'know, I'll let someone else throw the first stone.

[Bad at Lurking]

At the risk of being tossed into the epistolary wood chipper here, I'm not sure 'bias against' women playing men is entirely fair.

I will straight up admit to being pretty skeptical of women playing gay men because (and this is the part where I'm likely to get roasted), most of the examples I have personally seen have been, ah, problematic. I think that's the most diplomatic way to put it.

Subjectively, women playing straight men seem to do a little better, but I'm not sure if that's just because I miss things that a straight dude would find questionable or if more women playing straight dudes are likely to be doing so for less fetishistic reasons.

I don't have a bias against anyone playing any character. I have a bias against people playing characters that are insulting stereotypes without having made a conscious decision that the character is, in fact, going to be a stereotype and that there is a sane reason behind it based on RP and not TS.

I just notice the bad RP more with gay male characters, for obvious reasons.

[Ninjakitten]

A thing I think is always important to keep in mind is that we don't generally notice characters being well-played by someone of a different gender (or race or etc.) unless the player happens to say they're a different gender etc. OOC. It's easy to mistake "most lesbian characters I was aware were played by guys RL were pretty bad" for "most lesbian characters played by guys RL are pretty bad", and easy from there for people to move on to "that lesbian character strikes me as pretty bad so is probably played by a guy".

[GangOfDolls]

@Bad-at-Lurking said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

I will straight up admit to being pretty skeptical of women playing gay men because (and this is the part where I'm likely to get roasted), most of the examples I have personally seen have been, ah, problematic. I think that's the most diplomatic way to put it.

I have had this experience. A number of times higher than 1. My worst encounter with it was on Haunted Memories but most of the time since, it's been more often than not its been represented by straight or bi women primarily attracted to men who have a kink for gay male porn. Or that's how it reads to me - problematic fetishization of gay sex because it turns their player's crank.

That said, I'm quite certain that I've met some women playing gay men and had no idea because their efforts didn't come across the least bit squicky. Confirmation bias in action.

[Rinel]

@Ganymede said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

@saosmash said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

Like, sorry for double post, but to clarify, my point was more that manic pixie dreamgirl is one of those tropes that is definitely popularized based on its relevance to MEN, and I don't doubt that dudes playing lesbians often think they are being "chic" about this, but I've seen female players fall into the same trap.

My transgender friend fell into the same trap, and it was pretty fucking annoying. Like, yeah, I accept that you are a woman, but grown-ass women don't traipse about yammering about dress cuts and purses in polite company.

I mean, often.

Shit.

So I don't personally go for the thigh-high stockings and bows in the hair and hyper-feminine expression thing, but in defense of those who do: trans women, especially those who transition later in life, have missed out on a whole lot of life as a woman. There's a lot of grief/anger/other-emotions-as-appropriate about that, and sometimes people go over-the-top in experiencing what they feel they missed out on in a way to handle that emotion.

I remember a lot of my gay male friends being extremely flamboyant and stereotypically "gay" when they came out. It subsided with time. I don't know if you used the past tense when talking about your friend because she grew out of it, but I think it's pretty likely that she will if she hasn't already.

[surreality]

Ugh, finally back this morning. First, Rinel, I wouldn't think of you as 'a guy playing a lesbian' for reasons I hope are maybe more obvious today than they may have been yesterday. My issue with the guy-pixie girls is basically what sao mentioned -- it is very much a male fantasy of womanhood that ignores a lot of the real experience of it. (It's not in an over the top way, but one that ignores a lot of things that a transwoman would unfortunately be intimately familiar with also.)

I ultimately don't care what someone plays.

I will however side-eye the shit out of someone playing something like this very badly and crowing about how it shows 'how enlightened' they are, and how 'not like all those other straight white males that play <something not that>' they are.

@insomniac7809 I made a character with the hook 'Manic Pixie Dream Dread Girl' once as a twist on the trope, so I say go for it. Please, smash the shit out of that trope; I will happily hand off the mallet.

[Pacha]

@BetterJudgment

Did they ever change the way they dealt with gay characters? Or are you not aware?

[Ganymede]

@Rinel

She did change, yes. And I understand that she had every right to want to experience the parts of growing up she missed out on.

I guess I am expressing my opinion that watching girls growing into women can be really fucking annoying.

[Deleted]

Most characters are idealized versions of what we want to see.

Men play women as idealized and women play women as idealized.

Men also play men as idealized and women play women as idealized. There are outliers in the same way there are 'character actors' in film and television but for the most part everyone is a star and everyone is a protagonist.

On the topic of sexuality, well. That's where things get murky. People are generally just... all fucked up. And putting a label on them just winds up with a ton of meaningless labels like a damn infowarrior car covered in stickers.

[TiredEwok]

Anymore, I tend to play heterosexual female characters. I have played bisexual female characters in the past but way too many bad experiences has kind of... compelled me to not do so anymore I've also used to play male characters - still would if the mood to do so were to strike and I found myself in the right mindset to do so - who were all sorts of all over the place. My last two male characters were ones I played on BSG Cerberus: Petroski, who was very sexually ambiguous and would flirt with anyone, and Richards, who was heterosexual.

ETA: I will admit that I too have been guilty of playing horribly-done gay male characters that often get associated as being played by woman. I hope that I'd do better if I were to do so again in present-time.

[dev]

I don't really gun for relations IRL or IC, so in the past I've tried to play asexual characters either so off-putting or invested elsewhere that no one thinks to attempt bedding or "fixing" (massive ugh) them.

These days I don't care enough to actively dislike the idea, but if or when I do explore such RP, the genitalia of the characters won't matter. It would depend on whether or not I could stand writing with the mun regularly... also on the likelihood of their pulling/flicking one off at their keyboard, as that's not really my cup of tea. I'd hope they would at least have the decency to not make it obvious what they're doing, but I've been approached about TS in a pretty OOC-oriented way before so I wouldn't be surprised.

Sex/romance is just another aspect of a relationship that can be used as a vehicle for story and character-growth; it's nothing more and nothing less. I've realized that outright discarding it may be putting a damper on potential storylines with others, so I might put my oar in eventually. I appreciate this thread for letting me know in detail what to expect if or when I get around to it, lol.

[Apollonius]

I'm a 90/10 Gay/Straight Bisexualish Gay Male IRL who plays a wide variety of characters. I had tried out a female PC a very long time ago on Firan, and the female PC I played on a pay-for-play MUD to get fancy in-game items but I don't play them anymore. At most, I will NPC one or two but in a strictly non-sexual manner.

I used to have very strict boundaries between hetero-normative straight male PCs in RPG MUs and openly gay males in Shangrila. As my tilt got from like 60-40 Gay/Straight Bisexual to 90/10 mostly Gay, my appetite for playing straight PCs in either genre declined accordingly although I do did play more polysexual/bisexual PCs for the most part in RPG MUs (until I basically dropped out of RPG MUs entirely).

My favorite PCs were brutally decadent in terms of their sexuality, where it was sort of an exploration of a world that isn't in austere gay/straight dichotomies but fluid and open to both relationships and flesh-on-flesh activities that are driven by innate desire. Even my hard sub gay male PC on Shang engaged in the occasional heterosexual activity to great and explosive effect. My more dominant PCs tend to be much more heterosexual for some reason.

I get totally squicked at women playing men and men playing women. I don't know why, I just do. I will RP with anyone but I don't dip into that sort of cognitive dissonance IRL or in-game (nothing wrong with it, just not my thing) but we can still do brunch.

[Please Delete]

This post is deleted!

[Cupcake]

Cis female, more or less straight. I do stick to playing females exclusively, and most of my characters these days lean toward...bisexual, I guess? It's men in general, or specific women in particular as opposed to categorically women.

I wish there was a word for that kind of 90%/%10 variable beyond "bisexual". Someone once described my character from Darkwater as queer, but I didn't really feel right giving her that label because of the 90/10 (well, maybe a little more 75/25 for her in particular) but with a general preference to engage in hetero relationships, it seemed false to claim queerness.

[Roz]

@Cupcake Heteroflexible?