May 10, 2019, 9:12 PM
Forcing how, @Admiral ?
City of Shadows
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Forcing how, @Admiral ?
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@Ghost said in City of Shadows:
Idea: Perhaps a different approach needs to be concocted for WoD MUs.
One thing I've noticed is that single sphere-type nonWoD games often have some pretty good cohesiveness. Take the BSG games, for example. I've also heard good stuff about HorrorMux. There are lots of other examples.
I've noticed that multiple sphere games (be they factions, mostly houses, or supernatural types) begin as LETS TRY TO KEEP THINGS ORGANIZED and very quickly fall into FUCK, I DUNNO WHO IS DOING WHAT AND I'M NOT SURE IF 3 OR 4 FACTIONS ARE EVEN PLAYING THE SAME GAME. I've seen this happen in Star Wars games with Republic|Empire|Sith|etc factions, Firefly, WoD...
(anyone remember the Star Wars Mandalorian pirates in hip-hugging blue jeans, lip gloss, and baby doll tees?)
What the single sphere games have in common is usually a tentpole metaplot designed for all players to involve in, but also have mutual stake in. When you spread out your players, as well as their interests, some players simply don't understand that the further they distance from the GM-run realm, the less viable their characters are despite the players still wanting to have a meaningful impact on the game.
Rhetorical Idea: I know some people are die-hard Changeling fans or Vampire fans, but would more staff metaplot and less sphere options create a more cohesive gaming experience?
I'm talking about the classic VtM setup, for example, where everyone is either a vampire or a ghoul. Staff may control the Prince over the city. PCs focus on clans and coteries within the city. The problems of the city become the metaplot that EVERYONE has stake in. Werewolf NPCs are sniffing territory, ghosts in the subways, vampire hunters in the city, shifting mortal politics, ancient vampire rumors living in the sewers, the Ventrue Justicar is visiting...all with Storyteller cohesion focusing on clan leads as opposed to spread out sphere admin.
Have places tried this? Feedback?
I just can't help but feel that sometimes the spread of spheres actually seems to make it harder to get a large group roleplaying together, as well as getting an entire cast of characters to give a shit about something.
ETA: I know that WoD works this way. I.e. This game focuses on the lives and times of the Kindred of Chicago where Werewolves and Changelings are visiting plot devices to explore. Then, if so inclined, you don't open the game to Changeling Pcs, but instead create a second venue/game altogether where Vampires are the NPCs and all PCs stick together. I know this works with LARP and TT. So...run it like a LARP.
More and more lately I don't think its the spread on spheres that is to blame as much as the number of alts one person can have. If you have one alt in every sphere then cross sphere gets thrown out the window for the most part.
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@Steven-Universe Yeah, we know tons of alts and lots of spheres peter out quickly, I'd be interested in a game with multiple spheres and restricted alts to see how that fares.
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@Taika Well, I'm just spitballing here...
Have the Vampire Prince be a jackass who jams people into groups for territory reasons willy-nilly. There can be trading of group members back and forth and bartering and blahblahblah.
Or have some kind of mystical hoodoo linking people so they have to maintain X distance from each other or they start getting negative effects.
Or create 'cells' pre-cgen where people app in together and as folks fade out/quit playing open up those spots in existing groups so nobody ever apps in alone.
Or any number of things. There's all sorts of ways to force folks together.
Or
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@Admiral said in City of Shadows:
@Taika Well, I'm just spitballing here...
Have the Vampire Prince be a jackass who jams people into groups for territory reasons willy-nilly. There can be trading of group members back and forth and bartering and blahblahblah.
Or have some kind of mystical hoodoo linking people so they have to maintain X distance from each other or they start getting negative effects.
Or create 'cells' pre-cgen where people app in together and as folks fade out/quit playing open up those spots in existing groups so nobody ever apps in alone.
Or any number of things. There's all sorts of ways to force folks together.
Or
I mean, isn't that what factions/spheres/lodges/covenants/motley's are?
Pre-CG shoe horning people together would probably have the same outcome as some prison cells. Blood, poop and tears everywhere.
Of course, some would get along. That's just the odds. But most of us would start sharpening our toothbrushes.
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No need for drastic measures (and especially ones that make you unable to play with your friends - that's a terrible idea man
).The easiest and more intuitive way is to create a game with more emphasis on factions than small groups; for example it means more to be a Crone than to be in a certain coterie. Done.
If you want something more radical you could experiment with cross-factions enabled in CGen you can opt out of. Use families, for example; certain ones default to factions unless you explicitly opt out. Are you a Smith? You're considered part of the Invictus greater group even if you're not even a vampire, unless your character specifically didn't want any part of them. Then you have Silver Ladder/Invictus/Storm Lords crossovers for even more arrogance.
How to do things is the easy part; figuring out how to integrate what you just did into your game thematically, then thinking it through to figure out the negative aspects so you can tackle them preemptively is a much harder task since it's ongoing.
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Forcing people away from friends, or to play with people they don't want to. Or, sometimes, even pc's that clash (cause, let's face us. Some days we are just like: not you (generic 'you'), not today. Maybe next week. Then we can break noses and laugh it out ooc and hate each other ic.)
That's why I asked what was meant by forcing people to do the thing. I'm just not sure, as Arkandel said, a heavy handed approach would have the effect that's wanted.
We have 5 families set up per sphere. They haven't been set in stone, yet, and I need to add some more since Changeling is going in. They won't get a mechanical bonus, but being able to 'gen into a group /without/ a 'must play with if you don't fit' obligation would be really nice.
I hadn't thought about making them cross-sphere, but you bet a bunch of them will be, now. That's a great idea ^.^
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@Taika Five families per sphere is way, way too many.
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Okay, so how many?
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Just me throwing out a random number here... 10? Like, total? I dunno. Could convert some to Mystery Cults. Those are always neat.
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@Taika said in City of Shadows:
Okay, so how many?
How many is interesting? And have thematic things to do? Cool things that differentiate them completely from the rest?
Don't do it by the numbers, do it by the engagement factor. You don't want elements thrown out there without considering first what they can do for your game - why are they neat?
Ideally I'd want to agonize a bit over picking a faction - there should always be some buyer's regret after, too. Sure, this one is great but that one fits, too.
And they all need to be led and populated. How many people are you expecting to have on day 1? You don't want them spread out so much factions (such as families) are deserted since the whole point is to help people find each other and form coherent, meaningful ties.
What applies to families applies to spheres too, for much the same reasons. If you have 5 spheres and (say) 25 individual players that's 5 players per sphere. Is that enough? That's not a rhetorical question. And people attract people, so if from those 25 you get 9 in a sphere they will be a reason for others to join, so another might get 2-3 players. Are you prepared for that? Again, not a rhetorical question.
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I know everyone means well, but let’s not presume that the people working on the game haven’t already thought of all of these issues.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede Speaking for myself, I was answering a direct question.
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@Ganymede When I work on a project and I invite feedback I personally don't mind all sorts of it. But then I'm not a stable genius so I never consider all the issues possible.
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Quick update on the progress of things.
Alts will be limited to two, to start. 1 per sphere. So no double dipping with a vampire AND a ghoul, or a wolf AND a Blooded.
A bunch of code is in and updated. +plots is amazing, now. And some other bits and bobs are in. (Thanks, Theno!)
Data entry is coming along now that I've finished rejiggering colors and such.
Families have been cut from 20 to 5.
A lot of what is ahead now is stuffing things into the wiki, desc'ing, and building the stories for families and mystery cults, figuring out Bloodlines, lodges, and legacies. Entitlements are so personal to a pc, I don't have plans for pre-fabbing any.
The to-do list is still a bit daunting, but progress is chugging along nicely.
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@Taika said in City of Shadows:
Quick update on the progress of things.
Alts will be limited to two, to start. 1 per sphere. So no double dipping with a vampire AND a ghoul, or a wolf AND a Blooded.
A bunch of code is in and updated. +plots is amazing, now. And some other bits and bobs are in. (Thanks, Theno!)
Data entry is coming along now that I've finished rejiggering colors and such.
Families have been cut from 20 to 5.
A lot of what is ahead now is stuffing things into the wiki, desc'ing, and building the stories for families and mystery cults, figuring out Bloodlines, lodges, and legacies. Entitlements are so personal to a pc, I don't have plans for pre-fabbing any.
The to-do list is still a bit daunting, but progress is chugging along nicely.
This might not be the right thread for this question but specifically:
A bunch of code is in and updated. +plots is amazing, now. And some other bits and bobs are in. (Thanks, Theno!)
Will these changes be rolled into the code that games seem to reuse?
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The Lair code isn't Theno's. The original plots code I found in a MU* code archive with some googling.
The current version of it that we have? I don't care if other people want it. It's takes some fiddling, since it posts to bboards AND opens a +request.
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@Taika A couple of questions.
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What spheres (and splat versions) are you planning to open with after all?
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Do you have a soft timeline in mind for when the game might open?
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Vamp, Wolf, Changeling, Mage, M/M+ (None of the templates from Hurt Locker).
As for open? I'm not sure, yet, on an ish. There's a lot of brain storming and world building going on, as well as the data entry stuff.
Does 'before the next round of Autumn Holidays' help?
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As a heads up, the link for the discord might not work. The CoS chat got hit by 6-7 alt-right dickbags who were summarily banned and their 'contributions' to the chat removed. If you friend me as Puma#7260 I can add you directly, but since the link to the discord was tossed to a 'World of Darkness 2e' discord channel, we're letting it cool down for a day or three before turning it back on.
Apologies to anyone this inconveniences.
Also, still looking for some extra hands to help with things.
Also, Also, if you want to come test code, poke at making a bit (everything but changeling), and hang out, use temprooms, whatever, feel free to. Seeing interest helps keep me motivated :3