If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP

[Lotherio]

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@lock/pagelock me=!*Arkande

Due to abuse of @lock, staff at Something Mu have disabled this command 'feature'.

[Sparks]

@Arkandel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Sparks As @Thenomain often repeats like the cranky old man he is, code can't solve social issues.

The code facilitates, that's all.

Yes, agreed. But the point I was making was not that "code will solve all issues about finding RP", but that "I think that adding a +wantrp command which takes a summary of what you want to do in a scene does not actually facilitate finding RP in any meaningful way which the current Ares +scene code does not already provide." Given that the premise of the conversation was that Ares in specific needed such a system because +scene was insufficient.

[Lisse24]

@Auspice said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Auspice.
I agree. +Scenes does give you some of the info you need, but not enough to be able to find RP reliably. It tells you point 1. Who is already RPing, and whether or not you can join that scene, along with a sense of what that scene might be about.

It does not tell you 2 - 3. In other words, you have no clue who's on and isn't RPing but wants to be and what those scenes may be about. So on Ares you need another tool to work in conjunction with +scenes to fill that gap.

It does tell you what those scenes are about (/summary) if people fill it in. The details in scene info can be filled in at any time, but most of us only do so at the end because we aren't yet conditioned to do it sooner.

Yeah, I was agreeing that it does give that info, sorry if that wasn't clear!

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Do we really need special tools for this, or simply to adapt ourselves to asking about, and for, RP better?

A lot of my Master's Degree talked about creating performance aids or job aids. These are tools that are designed to help a person do a specific task better. When I talk about tools on MUSHes, I am approaching it through that lens. Before designing a new job aid, you're supposed to judge whether it's an individual issue which needs to be addressed with that individual or if it's an issue that many people performing that same task will have an issue with? Clearly, in this case many people are having the same issue, so it's something we should look at further.

Then you ask whether this is a problem where more information is needed. Can you teach someone how to get around the issue? In my judgment, I don't think this is an issue where there's an information deficit.

Then you consider whether you can tweak the already existing environment/culture to reach the desired outcome. As @Sparks points out, Ares' +scene system may already be able to provide the needed information. So for me, the test is whether on Ares people start to make that change, or whether they can be nudged to make that change, shifting the culture so people use +scenes both as a RP-finder and as the conduit of RP. If players do not make that shift, then it is not their fault and we are asking something unreasonable of them. If the shift is not made, then yes, you need to provide a better tool.

On non-Ares games, obviously the issue will still exist. I would encourage pushing people back to the grid, but people are resistant to that culture change. We'll have to consider whether there is a different environmental/cultural change to be made, or whether a tool is needed. At this point, I'm pretty convinced better tools are needed, but if people can tell me what else they can change, I'm willing to hear it.

[Lotherio]

@Sparks said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Arkandel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Sparks As @Thenomain often repeats like the cranky old man he is, code can't solve social issues.

The code facilitates, that's all.

Yes, agreed. But the point I was making was not that "code will solve all issues about finding RP", but that "I think that adding a +wantrp command which takes a summary of what you want to do in a scene does not actually facilitate finding RP in any meaningful way which the current Ares +scene code does not already provide." Given that the premise of the conversation was that Ares in specific needed such a system because +scene was insufficient.

ETA To quote this, its relevant to my pondering:
@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

the test is whether on Ares people start to make that change, or whether they can be nudged to make that change,

I think using +scene to make a scene public, with a short title that could be changed and a summary that could indicate what is expected was sort of intended to go that way.

Though, I'm noticing on the active Ares places, its going right to where the OP was coming from. Even group scenes are being set 'private' more and more. Its more arranging the scene through some leg work, which I'm not saying is a good or bad thing. Just new tools for changing environment. Ares is meant to be full web portal, client is for holdouts and older players. Instead of +finger to see someone's hooks, its just checking the wiki, then contacting them. Hey you seem interesting, we should scene, I propose an impromptu checkers game at the cracker barrel which is interrupted by the arrival of a juiced up truck driver come to find his cheating SO.

I can't speak to adding a +wantrp, I know indicating timeliness of poses when setting up a scene was discussed at some point by that group (like 5-10 mins between poses or, slow work scene 30+ mins between poses, or super slow, once a day cause our times don't align scene).

[faraday]

I've had +wantrp or +rpok tools on prior games and, in my experience, almost nobody ever used them. The RP Requests channel worked the best for connecting people. With Ares, I think it works even better because you can see prior requests easily on the web chat (or channel recall if you're using the client) so you can see that @Lisse24 was looking for RP twenty minutes ago and might still be.

I'm not opposed to adding a "looking for RP" flag/list if a bunch of folks want it, I just haven't done it because past experience tells me it's not a good solution to this problem.

ETA: However, I did envision the scene system being used for this end.

scene/start Somewhere in Westeros=open
scene/summary Looking for RP - maybe down by the dragons? I'm flexible

That shows up both on the web scenes list, the in-game +where, and the in-game scenes list. I don't really know how to advertise any better than that, but I'm all ears if somebody comes up with something.

[Auspice]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I've had +wantrp or +rpok tools on prior games and, in my experience, almost nobody ever used them. The RP Requests channel worked the best for connecting people. With Ares, I think it works even better because you can see prior requests easily on the web chat (or channel recall if you're using the client) so you can see that @Lisse24 was looking for RP twenty minutes ago and mights till be.

I'm not opposed to adding a "looking for RP" flag/list if a bunch of folks want it, I just haven't done it because past experience tells me it's not a good solution to this problem.

I just think it runs into the same problems. It's just passing the buck:

'I don't want to page anyone because it makes me uncomfortable, so..'
'Asking on channel is awkward, so..'

'..I'll set this +wantrp and wait for someone to page me!'

I know that's probably not everyone's line of thought, but the issue persists that when you have that +wantrp flag set, you are relying on people to page you and guess what: they have the same hangup as the rest of us. Paging out of the blue is scary. It's uncomfortable. It's 'I don't know this person. They don't know me. I don't know if that blurb is still valid. I'm just gonna go ask on channel instead because this is too anxiety-inducing.' <- how I've felt about every single 'wantrp' type flag I've ever seen.

But if I see an open scene on, say, an Ares game and I can either go on the web portal and see the last few poses? Or it has a summary? (And honestly, this discussion and what @Sparks was talking about is encouraging me to Git Gud about setting those summaries at the beginning of my scene) I am gonna be a lot more likely to drop in. Because it's an active scene. Because it's already giving me the feel right then and there for who these people are.

[Arkandel]

@faraday I've found (and obviously YMMV) that the use of tools like those is cultural. In some games they are commonly employed and it's nearly a no-brainer, and in others few players even know that they exist.

One way to do it is to incentivize them. For example games like Arx explicitly make it 'profitable' to play with new people (they have a flag, basically, that offers free XPs if they +recc others).

But other times it just... happens, organically, and people use the tools coded for this purpose. I don't know why since the syntax is usually very similar and fairly simple in all those games.

[A. Meowley]

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Ares is meant to be full web portal, client is for holdouts and older players.

Wait. It's supposed to be full web portal? How can we idly chat on channels on the web portal and stuff? Asking for a friend, because obviously I'm not so old that I can't immediately figure out a new system, that'd be absurd...

[Lotherio]

@A-Meowley said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Ares is meant to be full web portal, client is for holdouts and older players.

Wait. It's supposed to be full web portal? How can we idly chat on channels on the web portal and stuff? Asking for a friend, because obviously I'm not so old that I can't immediately figure out a new system, that'd be absurd...

All ares pages have a 'chat' page that has the traditional channels. You can chat on channel (and read mail and bbposts and soon PM) all on the web portal.

Translation ETA:

All Ares Web portal/sites have a chat page that comes with basic setup. If they disable the link, its on the game/mu not Ares.

[Tinuviel]

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

If players do not make that shift, then it is not their fault and we are asking something unreasonable of them

No. If you provide a tool, and people don't use it, that is the fault of the people not of the tool.

ETA: I also repeat that it will take time for people to adjust to new tools. Cultures take time to change, they just do. There is no magic tool that will appear and suddenly be in use by everyone all at the same time to the same level of competence.

[Auspice]

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@A-Meowley said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Ares is meant to be full web portal, client is for holdouts and older players.

Wait. It's supposed to be full web portal? How can we idly chat on channels on the web portal and stuff? Asking for a friend, because obviously I'm not so old that I can't immediately figure out a new system, that'd be absurd...

All ares pages have a 'chat' page that has the traditional channels. You can chat on channel (and read mail and bbposts and soon PM) all on the web portal.

And for people who don't know:

This is an example of what it'll look like for the PM option on the web portal! (Notion updated a couple days ago)
'New Conversation' lets you start a PM with someone. The others on the left are PMs that I've had since the update. The flagged one is a PM I received while offline that I haven't read yet (and you get the 'New private messages!' in the right-hand bar same as you might 'New activity in scenes!').

It's super awesome, esp. if you have friends who you often try to chat with while at work.

[krmbm]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

ETA: However, I did envision the scene system being used for this end.

+scene/start Somewhere in Westeros=open/Looking for RP - maybe down by the dragons? I'm flexible

That shows up both on the web scenes list, the in-game +where, and the in-game scenes list. I don't really know how to advertise any better than that, but I'm all ears if somebody comes up with something.

I think the thing that's missing on this is some sort of announcement about the open scene. Right now, at least on GH (and on SL, when I played there), the trend is to start the scene, then note on the RP channel that you started a scene.

Just spit-balling - If there was some kind of announcement option (e.g., - +scene/start Somewhere in Westeros=announce/Looking for RP - maybe down by the dragons? I'm flexible) that pushed a little "[RP Requests] Bob started an open scene: <Details>" comment...?

[Lisse24]

@faraday @Auspice I don't disagree. I think the +wantrp command as it exists is a pretty crappy tool that doesn't provide a lot of information. Again, if people are trying to do a task and we make a change to try and help them do that task, and the change fails, it's not the fault of the people who failed to adapt to it, it's the fault of tool/change we provided which didn't meet their need.

I do think that you can create a game culture where these extra tools are not needed. I think Arx is an excellent example of this. Arx created a game where players are reliant on each other. They've also pushed activity back to the grid, meaning that spontaneous/pick-up RP is easier to find. They've changed the game culture. However, most of the times when we have these conversations, game creators are very resistant to making the changes that Arx made.

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

If players do not make that shift, then it is not their fault and we are asking something unreasonable of them

No. If you provide a tool, and people don't use it, that is the fault of the people not of the tool.

ETA: I also repeat that it will take time for people to adjust to new tools. Cultures take time to change, they just do. There is no magic tool that will appear and suddenly be in use by everyone all at the same time to the same level of competence.

I was going to write a snarky response, but I absolutely agree. People take time to adjust to a new tool and you have to teach them how to use it, and you have to remind people that it's there, by CONSTANTLY pointing to it. By constantly, I mean big huge letters on the wiki: THIS IS HOW YOU FIND RP, daily emits on the game USE THIS, and periodic reminders. But if people know the tool exists and they try to use and STILL have the same problem, then it's not them, it's the tool.

This is a fundamental design principal so I don't know why I get push back on it, except that it's easier to point the finger at every one else than to honestly think over what you're doing, why it doesn't work, and make the changes you need to in order to make it work.

[Auspice]

@krmbm said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

ETA: However, I did envision the scene system being used for this end.

+scene/start Somewhere in Westeros=open/Looking for RP - maybe down by the dragons? I'm flexible

That shows up both on the web scenes list, the in-game +where, and the in-game scenes list. I don't really know how to advertise any better than that, but I'm all ears if somebody comes up with something.

I think the thing that's missing on this is some sort of announcement about the open scene. Right now, at least on GH (and on SL, when I played there), the trend is to start the scene, then note on the RP channel that you started a scene.

Just spit-balling - If there was some kind of announcement option (e.g., - +scene/start Somewhere in Westeros=announce/Looking for RP - maybe down by the dragons? I'm flexible) that pushed a little "[RP Requests] Bob started an open scene: <Details>" comment...?

So I just went digging around because I have been mulling this, a lot. Because I've been like 'I swear to god I remember this being a thing on BSU.'

I wonder if we just had 'announce' permissions as players and that's what I'm remembering.

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I was going to write a snarky response, but I absolutely agree. People take time to adjust to a new tool and you have to teach them how to use it, and you have to remind people that it's there, by CONSTANTLY pointing to it. By constantly, I mean big huge letters on the wiki: THIS IS HOW YOU FIND RP, daily emits on the game USE THIS, and periodic reminders. But if people know the tool exists and they try to use and STILL have the same problem, then it's not them, it's the tool.

But this is part of what @Sparks and I are trying to say: scene/summary, for example, does work! It's just still new and we're still adapting to it. I think it needs to be given more time before it's declared something that doesn't work.

[Lotherio]

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I do think that you can create a game culture where these extra tools are not needed. I think Arx is an excellent example of this. Arx created a game where players are reliant on each other. They've also pushed activity back to the grid, meaning that spontaneous/pick-up RP is easier to find. They've changed the game culture. However, most of the times when we have these conversations, game creators are very resistant to making the changes that Arx made.

I do believe there are some fundamental design philosophies that very between Ares and Arx. I for one would not want to see Ares adapt the level of in game tools/etc used on Arx. I think both are good at what they're aiming to provide. ETA Both have different goals/outcomes, and this is good and I support the variance.

[Lisse24]

@Auspice I never said it wouldn't work though! I totally agree that +scenes CAN work the way @Sparks outlined.

[Tinuviel]

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

But if people know the tool exists and they try to use and STILL have the same problem, then it's not them, it's the tool.

Not necessarily. The majority of my present career is teaching people how to use a tool. If they fail to grasp what I am teaching, it is neither their fault nor the tool's, but my own.

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

This is a fundamental design principal so I don't know why I get push back on it

Because it isn't a design problem, it is a socio-cultural problem. People aren't going to use the new shiny thing if they don't feel the need, no amount of flashing lights and signs pointing at the thing will make them use it. And if eighty percent of people don't feel the need to use a special tool to find their RP, then the twenty percent will only ever find each other.

[Lisse24]

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Not necessarily. The majority of my present career is teaching people how to use a tool. If they fail to grasp what I am teaching, it is neither their fault nor the tool's, but my own.

Point. True, but not applicable here, I think.

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

This is a fundamental design principal so I don't know why I get push back on it

Because it isn't a design problem, it is a socio-cultural problem. People aren't going to use the new shiny thing if they don't feel the need, no amount of flashing lights and signs pointing at the thing will make them use it. And if eighty percent of people don't feel the need to use a special tool to find their RP, then the twenty percent will only ever find each other.

So, how do you solve that problem then? And no, I don't accept telling someone to keep doing the very thing that's failing them as an acceptable answer.

[Roz]

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Lisse24 said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I do think that you can create a game culture where these extra tools are not needed. I think Arx is an excellent example of this. Arx created a game where players are reliant on each other. They've also pushed activity back to the grid, meaning that spontaneous/pick-up RP is easier to find. They've changed the game culture. However, most of the times when we have these conversations, game creators are very resistant to making the changes that Arx made.

I do believe there are some fundamental design philosophies that very between Ares and Arx. I for one would not want to see Ares adapt the level of in game tools/etc used on Arx. I think both are good at what they're aiming to provide. ETA Both have different goals/outcomes, and this is good and I support the variance.

Arx and Ares aren't equivalent concepts: Arx is a game and Ares is a codebase. It would be the difference between Evennia and Ares, and Evennia doesn't come with the amount of Arx tools coded in. Ares and Evennia definitely have different starter codebase philosophies, but there's little reason why a specific Ares game couldn't decide to build a lot of code tools if that's what worked for that specific game. I don't really imagine that Faraday has an overall goal of "don't have extensive custom coding for any game using the Ares codebase." As more games utilize Ares, I think we'll see a growing variety of custom work for it that will continue to diversify games. We're at the very beginning of seeing what fun people come up with for Ares.

[Auspice]

What we are discussing is something that game designers discuss when they approach a new game. What designers discuss when they work on updating interfaces on cellphones or Facebook or YouTube. This isn't 'just' a tool.

This is a meeting between psychology, game theory, and user interface (UX) design. It's a meeting of three branches. There have been so many books written on this topic and none of them are 'the' final word. Because there is no perfect answer. Because there is no 'one size fits all.'

The best you can do is find something that works well and try to adapt it as best you can for 'most.' That's really where we're at right now.

People vastly smarter and more capable than any of us spend their entire career trying to answer these questions and the best they have, really, is 'we're still working on it.'