Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?

Ghost

@Caryatid said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

The shape of the interaction with the NPCs doesn't matter to me. What matters is the atmosphere created by those interactions, if it feels like a level playing ground. When it doesn't (and I acknowledge there will be times it doesn't feel level without there being actual staff misconduct), no amount of railing by the players is going to change staff's approach to it (because people on any side of an argument will find justifications to shore up their side of things). Your option then is to vote with your feet.

It isn't a matter of knowing it when I see it. For me, I know it when I feel it, and when I do feel it I'm generally not long for that game.

I think there's a lot of poignant stuff in your post. I'm a huge fan of "voting with your feet" because nothing is worse than fighting a losing battle and night after night logging into some place that "drives you fucking crazy, but you've put so much work into". I wouldn't wish that unconfortable feeling (of putting effort into something you know isn't going yo reward you, but you feel required to) on anyone. That's just...depressing.

I think that when it comes to the concept of "Staff NPCs" and the potential risks for corruption, conflict of interest, and favoritism, it's important to note that many people reaping those benefits are usually in one of three mindsets.

"I get these benefits because I don't suck, and if you want these benefits, just get on board with staff and ride the USS FRIEND NETWORK." (We know it's corrupt. We are on the winning team).
"Isn't this just how things work? I have a good working relationship with staff, submit jobs, and do RP that gets rewards. I dont know why you aren't getting your bennies." (I may or may not know I'm on staff's good side, but am receiving benefits for it and am not aware of any corruption. Staff just seems to like playing with me! BUT STAFF IS TOTALLY REWARDING THEM FOR BEING A VIP OR THEY'RE SAYING THIS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO PUT THEIR CHEATING ON THE RADAR AS ACTUAL CHEATING.)
Same as #2, but the player is simply unaware that anything corrupt is going on at all, because staff has never imparted any suggestion that their rewards are corrupt. They may not even be corrupt. They could be 100% legitimate. Since they are not you, they can't tell why you may not be getting similar results.

My point: You can't always assume WHY someone is getting rewards without more proof/information. The risk of misfire and accusing (or mistreating) a player who has no idea whatsoever if they're getting special bennies is very high. Don't be a dick. Be mindful of this.

I've learned that the best approach is to admit that everyone has bias. Everyone likes playing with people who are fun to write with or have low drama. It's how they handle thesr biases that explain whether or not the behavior is corrupt. It's hard to diagnose, and even harder to prove.

...which is why I'm going to reiterate that I think the best option is that when a staffer plays, they *shouldn't be allowed to provide rewards to themselves or others. When a GM plays, that GM hat gets hung up.

Quick shout out. @Wretched is good about this. I appreciated his desire to separate himself between PLAYER and STAFFER. 10/10. Would ride again.

saosmash

I disagree that TS is always irrelevant to story. Rping out sex can have an impact on the intimacy of characters that is very difficult to replicate through simple ftb. Any kind of story can be off camera, but there is always more room to maneuver and express where you actually rp versus where you offscreen. Whether you are off camming the boning or the torture or whatever else.

Wretched

@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

Edit: I mean 'the GM's girlfriend' is a fucking thing for a reason.

Sunny

@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

Nope, because it's not actually a sexual relationship. No sex is happening.

ETA: GM's girlfriend is a thing because the girlfriend is ACTUALLY FUCKING the GM.

Thenomain

@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

Is the interaction being taken IC or OOC?

How many people would any of us trust to take "RPing out sex" to be wholly IC?

Which I think was the point you were getting at.

Groth

@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I disagree that TS is always irrelevant to story. Rping out sex can have an impact on the intimacy of characters that is very difficult to replicate through simple ftb. Any kind of story can be off camera, but there is always more room to maneuver and express where you actually rp versus where you offscreen. Whether you are off camming the boning or the torture or whatever else.

In general I agree and it's the kind of argument I use to justify spending time on TS scenes for my own characters. However when it comes to NPCs I have a hard time thinking of a situation where playing the scene out is a good use of my time as Staff, esp as NPC relations should get documented so future Staff can take over.

Roz

@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

Uh, I don't have a sexual relationship with any of the players my characters have TSed with. (The one or two times I've had a flirty OOC thing with another player, it was actually in instances where no TS had ever happened between our characters.)

Sunny

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

Kanye Qwest

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

How many people would any of us trust to take "RPing out sex" to be wholly IC?

YIKES

I always assume, default, that sex being RPd out is wholly IC. On the rare occasions I have done sexy rp and suddenly felt like ...oh, this is probably a kink this player is keen to play, I have felt massively uncomfortable and that was the end of that.

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

me too, i straight up grimaced

Sunny

Edited: Inappropriate for mildly constructive.

Wretched

@Thenomain For every person that claims 'I just type porn words back and forth for hours and i stirs nothing on my loins.' there are another 15 of them that are typing one handed and will tell you about it. How do I know this? Because I've been MUing for 20 fucking years. Because I have direct experience as a player and a staffer. Because i have read about it on MSB and WORA. Because there is no reason that you as a staffer need to engage in TS to further the plot of the fucking game.

Roz

Time to @ everyone here I've TSed with, since I now have a newfound relationship with all of you!

Thenomain

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

How long have you been on the internet?

I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.

Sunny

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

How long have you been on the internet?

I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.

Skeeve =/= surprise.

Thenomain

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

How long have you been on the internet?

I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.

Skeeve =/= surprise.

Okay, so you're skeeved? So what? This is an honest question because I don't know how your discomfort changes what other people do or believe.

Not that you're wrong. Nor do I think you're right. I just don't know what this has to do with anything.

Caryatid

I actually do fall into the pool of opinion that sexual stories are valid stories. Like @saosmash says, I do think that character development can occur during TS. I think that other RP can be spurred by what occurs in sexual situations. It's all part of the human (or alien or robot or mutant) experience.

Where my discomfort comes into it, specifically in regards to NPCs being played by staff, is where it feels there is a barrier to achieving greater RP because NPC access is limited to a chosen few. I have been in that situation before. When you're following the posted rules and guidelines to interact with the world/metaplot/staff/NPCs, presumably jumping the same hoops other players are jumping, and they are leaping into a dynamic tapestry of interactions that spur on their story and you... just are not living the same experience.

That isn't a player issue. The players who are benefiting from their experience, I'm happy that they get that.

But I want that too. Call it jealousy, ok. I feel to name it that is dismissive, and overlooks the underlying issues. With all of their tools staff is creating experiences for people. NPCs are a big part of that toolbox. And people notice when the pattern is radically different experiences for different portions of the playerbase.

bored

@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I disagree that TS is always irrelevant to story. Rping out sex can have an impact on the intimacy of characters that is very difficult to replicate through simple ftb. Any kind of story can be off camera, but there is always more room to maneuver and express where you actually rp versus where you offscreen. Whether you are off camming the boning or the torture or whatever else.

This is the only thing I really consider a valid counter-argument here, but I still think there's a fundamental difference between what most people are talking about when they say 'TS' and what you're describing.

TS itself can be a vague term. I played briefly on a game where my character owned a saloon/brothel, and he had several scenes hiring new employees (tangentially: lol, everyone wanted to be a hooker). I had no prior relationship with these players and so I always told them we could play with any level of explicitness they cared for, or could straight ftb. Some went straight for the TS. But I also had one scene that fell into the vague middle ground of this, where we RPed enought to indicate some of the traumatic elements that went with the job/setting but without posing, erm, juices and whatnot?

I'm not going to indict someone as ethically bankrupt because they have one scene in which their NPC and some PC bone, and they do 2-3 poses that summarize the activities, emotional involvement, etc.

I am going to sideeye any relationship between a staffer, their GM-PC puppet, and a player that involves ongoing, lengthy, descriptive TS to the point where it reaches textual mutual masturbation.

Ghost

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

Nope, because it's not actually a sexual relationship. No sex is happening.

ETA: GM's girlfriend is a thing because the girlfriend is ACTUALLY FUCKING the GM.

Perhaps I should ask Wretch's question (which I feel is fair play) in a different way:

So you don't think that ~~having a sexual relationship~~ engaging in the creation of sexual/OOCly stimulating content that could compromise the bias of a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?

To put it bluntly, no one accuses staff who has scenes where they play catch with a football as a scene that might compromise staff bias, because (in most cases?) scenes where people throw a football around probably don't result in boners, fantasy fulfillment, or masturbation.

(IMO) On even a chemical level, the stimulation of the brain works differently in these cases, and absolutely could be used as a vehicle to getting bias benefits.

surreality

Something not in my job description as staff: providing a player with strokebait.

I don't believe I have to type this out loud, but here we are: once someone tells you, the player/staffer/whatever you are, that whatever you've just done has inspired a real world orgasm?

The dynamic has definitely changed on some level.

Is that a relationship? No.

You have, however, wittingly or no, just 'inspired' some very physical sexual reactions from another player, not their character.

Whether you are OK with that or not.

That's not a character interaction any more, y'all.

Sunny

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.

How long have you been on the internet?

I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.

Skeeve =/= surprise.

Okay, so you're skeeved? So what? This is an honest question because I don't know how your discomfort changes what other people do or believe.

Not that you're wrong. Nor do I think you're right. I just don't know what this has to do with anything.

Because someone was trying to make the point that TSing with someone equates out to having a sexual relationship with them, OOCly. Calling attention to that premise as gross by my standards draws attention to the problem with the premise of the argument being made. It's an opinion though (that it's gross is, I mean), so I'm not trying to present it as more than that.

@Ghost

Could? Sure. Again, I refer back to the qualifier 'ethical'. If the staffer is ethical, the inclusion of romantic or sexual elements is fine. If the staffer is unethical in the first place, those elements being off limits is not going to save your game (or players) from their behavior.