Our Tendency Towards Absolutes

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 4:30 AM

@Ghost Oh the absolutism thing is easy. People seek patterns, even when none exist, and attribute bad things from one member of a 'class' - in this case, staff - to all, or at least the potential for such bad things. This is an important trait, as it's better to be convinced there's a tiger in the grass when there isn't rather than the other way about.

Honestly, you're not going to convince many people that there isn't a tiger in the grass if they've had experiences with tigers in the past. Staff are going to be held to a standard, regardless as to any 'rules', and that's just something you've got to deal with. Same with any relationship, if you've had several shitty boyfriends you're going to assume that the next guy is just as shitty until proven otherwise.

Sunny · May 27, 2019, 4:36 AM

@Ghost said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

I was just offering my perspective and my feeling about the absolutism topic and why I think it's a thing. I may be wrong, I may be onto something, but I'm 100% willing to help mend issues and not being shitty about it.

I think that if it were on games like you're referring to here, it would be a huge problem. I think that what you are talking about is bad, and wrong, and if it is happening somewhere or someone is doing it than everyone involved should stop. Don't get me wrong, what you're positing is TERRIBLE.

It just isn't happening? You're suggesting a solution without a problem.

ETA: Like dear god, if this was your experience with mushing before when you were doing it, I do not blame you at ALL for running away screaming. But it's not at all like that out in the wilds! I promise! Maybe you should give it another shot and come see how different it can be not amongst crazies? I dunno.

Ghost · May 27, 2019, 4:37 AM

@Sunny said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

@Ghost said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

I was just offering my perspective and my feeling about the absolutism topic and why I think it's a thing. I may be wrong, I may be onto something, but I'm 100% willing to help mend issues and not being shitty about it.

I think that if it were on games like you're referring to here, it would be a huge problem. I think that what you are talking about is bad, and wrong, and if it is happening somewhere or someone is doing it than everyone involved should stop. Don't get me wrong, what you're positing is TERRIBLE.

It just isn't happening? You're suggesting a solution without a problem.

We can agree to disagree, but personally...I disagree with you. I believe that there absolutely is a problem and that some people are constantly poised to write each other off, which is sad to me. I think pretty regularly we have Hog Pit stuff about how X person did this for Y reason, but then it turns out to be a misunderstanding. This isnt the behavior of a group of people with a lot of respect for each other.

You don't have to agree with me, and that's okay. It's just my take on it.

Sunny · May 27, 2019, 4:39 AM

@Ghost said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

You don't have to agree with me, and that's okay. It's just my take on it.

Good! You don't have to agree with me either, and my disagreement is my take on it. Good talk!

Ghost · May 27, 2019, 4:40 AM

@Sunny THIS WAS SOME PEACEFUL SHIT. HIGH FIVE.

About to finish the new Halloween movie. Y'all have a good night.

Sunny · May 27, 2019, 4:42 AM

@Ghost

Enjoy!

Everyone else:

I am genuinely curious, now. For the people who are still playing on games, do you feel there's a lot of people either ready to write one another off, or just in general hating each other to the extent that they can't co-exist? Is this actually peoples' experiences on the games? I mean, I know I'm considered an optimist (and find that generally laughable), but is it really that bad out there for other people?

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 4:46 AM

@Sunny If there is a small army of people rampaging around hating on everything, I haven't seen it. Sure, you get the occasional person that seems to be intent on making you want to hate them, but that's just a people thing. Some people are just shitty people.

But it's one in a thousand, and frankly I'd rather someone come here to the Hog Pit and post publicly when they think I'd done something wrong for a bad reason. I can't defend myself from whisper campaigns, but I can on a forum.

surreality · May 27, 2019, 4:49 AM

@Sunny I'm dealing with this right now, in fact.

The person in question kept carping on for months about how they were completely disenchanted with the game, probably weren't sticking around, etc., and yet, the moment things went south, they tripled down on being present and as omnipresent as possible, with some noticed changes in the normal, long-term patterns of their behavior.

It is not charming, at all. Or subtle. There's already bullshit whisper game nonsense that's made it back to me.

Whee?

I do my best to ignore it, but really, I play on one game, and I've decided I'm not willing to give it up for someone who behaved horribly on a personal level and has broadly declared being proud of themselves for having done so.

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 4:51 AM

@surreality Is this one person on one game, or a symbol of a greater issue?

I mean it sounds like the former, and some folks are going to be shitbirds no matter how much we talk about it, or decry it, or submit a formal MSB Resolution (since some people think we can do that) of objection.

surreality · May 27, 2019, 4:55 AM

@Tinuviel This is definitely one person. The behavior itself isn't something I'd consider incredibly rare, however.

I don't consider myself 'a horrible problem' for wanting to stay away from this person, or not wanting to have them shoved in my face.

Additionally, I don't think I should have to leave the game to avoid having to deal with them being shoved in my face.

In this instance, it's simple: "Please don't put me and X in the same faction, due to a personal conflict I am trying to avoid them."

Y'all can talk about how this is the 'death of the hobby' and how it's 'just so awful that anyone does this', but when someone's done something spectacularly awful within the past month? No, I'm not going to be inclined to engage them in any way.

faraday · May 27, 2019, 4:55 AM

@Sunny said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

I am genuinely curious, now. For the people who are still playing on games, do you feel there's a lot of people either ready to write one another off, or just in general hating each other to the extent that they can't co-exist? ... is it really that bad out there for other people?

Yes.

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 4:56 AM

@surreality said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

Y'all can talk about how this is the 'death of the hobby' and how it's 'just so awful that anyone does this', but when someone's done something spectacularly awful within the past month? No, I'm not going to be inclined to engage them in any way.

And nobody is asking you to.

Sunny · May 27, 2019, 4:58 AM

@faraday said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

@Sunny said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

I am genuinely curious, now. For the people who are still playing on games, do you feel there's a lot of people either ready to write one another off, or just in general hating each other to the extent that they can't co-exist? ... is it really that bad out there for other people?

Yes.

I'm pretty floored and have a hard time understanding why anyone would put up with that for any length of time at all, let alone do it recreationally.

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 5:01 AM

There is a difference, I think, between simply writing someone off and actively making their time worse. I write people off all the time in an "I did not enjoy my time with this person, so I will not spend any more time on this person" sort of way, but I don't go out of my way to get them shunned.

The former is fine, and I'd say responsible behaviour. The latter needs to be punished as harassment.

surreality · May 27, 2019, 5:01 AM

@Tinuviel Kinda sounding like that, or that this is rare. It's kinda not. As staff on the game, there have been a few similar requests prior to that I've seen (and staff has zero issue with).

In it's ideal form -- and bear in mind I think quietly noting to staff sans drama 'I would prefer to not be paired up with X for stuff' is the closest thing to ideal we can get here -- this is not going to be glaringly obvious to anyone, provided people behave reasonably.

Except, you know, the whisper games. But they always come back around to whoever is getting whispered about. Always.

Sunny · May 27, 2019, 5:04 AM

@Tinuviel said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

There is a difference, I think, between simply writing someone off and actively making their time worse. I write people off all the time in an "I did not enjoy my time with this person, so I will not spend any more time on this person" sort of way, but I don't go out of my way to get them shunned.

The former is fine, and I'd say responsible behaviour. The latter needs to be punished as harassment.

Okay, that makes more sense to me, thank you. I was coming from the perspective of writing off = the shunning thing you're talking about, but 'I will quietly not play with them' is different. Thank you! I feel a little bit better.

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 5:08 AM

@Sunny said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

@Tinuviel said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

There is a difference, I think, between simply writing someone off and actively making their time worse. I write people off all the time in an "I did not enjoy my time with this person, so I will not spend any more time on this person" sort of way, but I don't go out of my way to get them shunned.

The former is fine, and I'd say responsible behaviour. The latter needs to be punished as harassment.

Okay, that makes more sense to me, thank you. I was coming from the perspective of writing off = the shunning thing you're talking about, but 'I will quietly not play with them' is different. Thank you! I feel a little bit better.

That's just my view on it, not necessarily the one everyone else is taking. Harassing someone is still harassing, no matter the cause, and that can be punished. Simply not wanting to participate with/around someone isn't a problem.

So if I were on @surreality's game, and requested that she not deal with me in any capacity, that would be fine. That is the solution, not the problem. If I then went around and started a whisper campaign, which I would argue counts as harassment even if what I'm saying is true, then I should be punished for that.

It may well be that there are dozens of whisper campaigns going around. That's the problem that needs solving, not simply refusing to deal with a specific person.

ETA: This has very little to do with respect, in my view. I can absolutely not respect someone and still not be a dick about it.

Derp · May 27, 2019, 7:47 AM

@Sunny said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

For the people who are still playing on games, do you feel there's a lot of people either ready to write one another off, or just in general hating each other to the extent that they can't co-exist? Is this actually peoples' experiences on the games?

God, yes. So much yes. So much shit-talking and vague hatred happens, on every major game I have played on in the last three years, regardless of genre.

Coin · May 27, 2019, 11:40 AM

naw. i hate you all. burn in hell.

but like, burn in a hell with a wi-fi connection so we can still rp.

thx.

Tinuviel · May 27, 2019, 12:29 PM

@Coin said in Our Tendency Towards Absolutes:

but like, burn in a hell with a wi-fi connection so we can still rp.

So. Really no change to what we're already doing?