Cyberrun

[Ominous]

@Admiral I am fine with child characters above a certain age, like 10, as children younger than that are too hard to play correctly, and any interactions are going to be dull. At around 10 kids start being more independent, getting into more trouble, asking difficult questions, and are more capable of participating in the story. However, they shouldn't have the same stats as adults.

[Ghost]

I'm fine with underage characters being depicted as they are in Stranger Things.

By that I mean a bunch of nonsexualized tweens worrying about their first kiss and tween stuff rather than being used as sock puppets for underage TS fantasies.

[Misadventure]

I wonder where peoples RL sexual experiences while under 18 fit into this.

[Rinel]

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

I wonder where peoples RL sexual experiences while under 18 fit into this.

I hadn't before you said this and I'm going to do my absolute best to keep not wondering that.

[Ominous]

[Tinuviel]

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

I wonder where peoples RL sexual experiences while under 18 fit into this.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[Auspice]

@Tinuviel said in Cyberrun:

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

I wonder where peoples RL sexual experiences while under 18 fit into this.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

I'm really hoping my kneejerk comprehension of it was wrong.

[Ominous]

@Tinuviel My interpretation of @Misadventure's statement was that they were trying to point out that people are sexual beings at all ages, one's understanding of their sexuality and expression of such changes and matures over time, and pretending and shaming youths for being sexual creatures is harmful. I might be reading waaay too much into it, though. And while that may be true, considering how hamfisted most of the writing is on MU*s with adult characters, exploring that particular subject requires sensitivity, nuance, understanding, and a great deal of maturity that most players simply don't have.

[Auspice]

@Ominous said in Cyberrun:

shaming youths for being sexual creatures is harmful.

no one's shaming youths for being sexual.

We're shaming adults for sexualizing youths.

I know and fully acknowledge people under 18 have sex. But I absolutely should never exhibit or feel any desire toward someone under 18.

[Tinuviel]

To extend on @Auspice's point a bit, we're also adults - at least the vast majority of us that would play on a MU. We can play children, sure, it's interesting to write from the perspective of a child rather than an adult in certain instances.

When we TS, we're essentially writing porn. And that's fine, when both participants are adults and are presenting as adults. When you throw under age presentations into the mix, especially if you're combining an underage character with an adult? That's just... messy, to put it mildly.

[Ominous]

@Auspice I did not say anyone here was shaming youths. My reading of @Misadventure's post was that they were pointing out that 'Hey, youths are sexual beings,' perhaps because they felt that the discussion was saying that youths aren't sexual beings. That tends to come from an Evangelical outlook that sex is evil and anyone under 18 is some innocent pure being that never thinks about sex or sexuality at all, until they turn 18 and a magical switch is flipped. But only partially flipped. You need to be married before it will flip all the way.

When I was a teen, I had a female friend whose mother freaked out because my female friend knew what a penis was, and started claiming that the devil must have somehow instructed in her those things. The Bible Belt is an interesting place.

@Tinuviel That's what I just said.

considering how hamfisted most of the writing is on MU*s with adult characters, exploring that particular subject requires sensitivity, nuance, understanding, and a great deal of maturity that most players simply don't have.

Anyways, that was my reading of the post. It seemed awkward to me too, which is why I posted Chris Hansen popping in. No idea if my reading was correct or not.

[Groth]

I have essentially two problems with children in most MUs. The first is that many MUs tend to have a lot of mature themes that I'm not comfortable seeing children participate in, even if we disregard sex I'm not fond of seeing child characters get maimed/tortured/abused and I don't like having to deal with the possibility of a child being present in a scene where that kind of darkness can play out.

The second is that the kind of player that is likely to play a child is usually the kind of players you don't want to play a child.

[Ghost]

Not to dig too deeply into this, but I always find it weird that shaming becomes a topic when people mention discomfort with adults role-playing minors in sexual situations. So I'll say this:

1. Yes, teens hook up. Regardless of teen sexuality it is still both illegal and unethical for adults to retroactively cross that 18 line, so the desire to RP as or with a PC who is a minor in a sexual situation raises eyebrows. Always. That cross to bear is on the shoulders of the pro-minor TS RP; not the person with the raised eyebrow.

2. The game suggests a 12 year old body in a sexual situation. It's within the realm of possibility that we arent talking just about teens, but about potential simulated sex with what appears to be a pre-teen (or, for perspective, a 5th grader at an elementary school). It doesn't matter if the "soul" in the 12 year old appearing shell is that of a 45 year old man because the willingness to engage in fuckery with the imagery of a child is, IMO, fucked up.

3. The unspoken rule of life is "teens bang teens, adults bang adults". The closer you hold to this statement the less controversial said banging will be.

[Misadventure]

I was noting that the (let's go with healthy and fairly positive) lives people here lived growing up would be forbidden to RP by the guidelines offered. I've seen that approach taken so far as to say that forbidden RP topics also can't exist as topics in the setting.

To me, highlights that 18 is a magical number in these considerations, especially when OFTEN people end up at 18-20 so it's really close to that line. If we're so concerned, why is that?

I get the concern about the skeevy people, and skeevy topics, I wondered what others had to say with as little prompting from me. That last part is a major part of why I am brief, or even cryptic.

[Tinuviel]

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

To me, highlights that 18 is a magical number in these considerations, especially when OFTEN people end up at 18-20 so it's really close to that line. If we're so concerned, why is that?

The number itself isn't important, but the cultural mores that surround it. Right or wrong, eighteen is (in many English-speaking nations) the dividing line between adulthood and childhood. In the real world, the difference between the minute before midnight and the minute after on an eighteenth birthday doesn't cause a change - we all know this... except bouncers outside pubs, apparently.

However. Playing someone eighteen or over is a decision to play an adult, playing someone below the age of eighteen is a decision to play a child. So the number itself isn't as important as the decision behind the choice of character type.

[Misadventure]

I see your answer, thank you. I do wonder if others also agree that electing to play 18+ means they are electing to play an adult.

Does that strike a chord with other folks here?

And why doesn't Pris skeeve people? She's a 4 year old in an adult body, slated to be a sex worker.

PS It took me a long time to realize that Zhora was not designed a sex worker, yet that is where she ends up. It easy to see thats a comment on exploitation of women and replicants. I think it's also a sign of the replicants empathy. They didn't ask the one already designed and likely traumatized by sex work to do so again. Instead, the killer does it.

I may be thinking about Blade Runner too much.

[Groth]

@Misadventure
The important part especially when you're dealing with artificial beings isn't the number of years the character has existed but if it presents as an adult or a child. Characters who are really young but look and behave like adults are usually not perceived as skeevy while born yesterday style characters who act like children in adult bodies can often come across as extremely skeevy especially if sex is involved. When talking about the replicants specifically they were given artificial memories which made them almost impossible to distinguish from an actual normal adult.

[Tinuviel]

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

And why doesn't Pris skeeve people? She's a 4 year old in an adult body, slated to be a sex worker.

Though this isn't remotely the same discussion, she does skeeve people. She's supposed to.

[Ghost]

@Misadventure said in Cyberrun:

And why doesn't Pris skeeve people? She's a 4 year old in an adult body, slated to be a sex worker.

Misleading.

Pris was a artificial being with an adult personality and an adult appearance that was designed to be a pleasure model that came off of the assembly line four years ago.

The human growth and development process and concept of having to evolve from child to adult never applied to Pris.

When Blade Runner released, Daryl Hannah was 22.

[Misadventure]

@Tinuviel This isn't remotely the discussion? Funny, I thought I was part of the discussion, and it seems related to me: IC mental versus IC physical ages and players seeking RP that either just skeeves people or is outright depicting what would be illegal most everywhere. However, you are the first to mention being skeeved by Pris, so +1.

@Ghost Misleading? Did you not watch Blade Runner? They are emotionally children. The memories are "cushions", the bodies artificial. They have restraint, true, but little maturity at all. The actress was 22? The players people are concerned about are very likely as old or older, so maybe not the best measurement?

@Groth solid.

Question: Are there other warning signs that players specifically looking to RP this sort of thing, other than specifically advertising it? Is the activity easy to spot, or any other advice for staff seeking to remove this sort of thing from their games?