Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing

[Auspice]

On SGM we also included a 'staff expectations' policy. It details what players can expect from staff and what staff expects of players.

Shit like 'Staff is here to have fun, too, and will have their own PCS. BUT their PCs are beholden to the same rules as players.' And'if Staff is logged into their PC but not their Staff alt, it means they are taking a break and should not be pestered about game shit' etc.

(all paraphrased) But I think such a file is important. Staff should outline what they expect from their players, but they should also showcase what players can expect from Staff.

[Griatch]

@Auspice said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

Well, I put the Arx one on @Tehom more than @Griatch.

@Tehom has really done a great job with Arx. He's not needed much help from the Evennia community at all; he mostly contributes stuff to us upstream and now and then pops in to report any weird Evennia errors he finds in the process of running Arx.

Evennia is still super intimidating (I love it in concept and if I was good with Python I've got like, 3 different ideas for the codebase ... but I am not remotely strong enough a coder to even begin).

I understand this is your perspective of it (which is fair). Any new code/language/system can be intimidating when coming to them fresh, especially if having little or no programming background.

However, those using Evennia appears to overall find it a pretty easy system to use. Yes really. I can't really say more than "appears", since I'm a bit too close to it to make definite claims like that. It would be interesting if some third party actually using Evennia for real could make a review of it on here to show the developer's perspective for once.

Yes, tech is important. Yes, it can help get new blood.
But these solutions are still geared towards 'people already here.' (aka someone brand new who has never heard of MUing is highly unlikely to grab Evennia and build a game)

You'd be surprised. People start game projects for all sorts of reasons, and a text-based game world (even multiplayer, woah!) is actually a very tempting self-learning project for getting into programming/game-dev/IT/whatever. If those devs actually end up contributing something worthwhile to the community is another matter of course. But they do come.

[faraday]

@Auspice said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

But these solutions are still geared towards 'people already here.' (aka someone brand new who has never heard of MUing is highly unlikely to grab Evennia and build a game)
Like I said: a lot of times tech comes up, it's for 'what bells and whistles can we add to appeal to the Kids Of Today?' ...
IMO, culture and game options are the big deal. Yes, tech HELPS but it is not the answer (which, as @Ghost pointed out, it's often touted to be).

We can argue all day long about the chicken and egg problem.

If there are 100 cool games, but the young kids are all: "Eeewww" by the technology, then we get no new players.

If there is wiz-bang new technology, but only 5 games all run by psychos / populated by creepers and jerks / etc., then we get no new players.

Solving BOTH problems is important.

I wholeheartedly agree with @Thenomain that you have to be careful when trying to solve social problems with code. Often you can't, but sometimes you can. "I don't know if this log has been doctored" is a common reason for staff to be suspicious in they-said situations. Ares provides anti-harassment tools that makes it easy for players to submit verified logs of abuse. But all the abuse-reporting tools in the world won't help if the staff is the one doing the abusing or turning a blind eye to it.

[Auspice]

@faraday said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I wholeheartedly agree with @Thenomain that you have to be careful when trying to solve social problems with code. Often you can't, but sometimes you can. "I don't know if this log has been doctored" is a common reason for staff to be suspicious in they-said situations. Ares provides anti-harassment tools that makes it easy for players to submit verified logs of abuse. But all the abuse-reporting tools in the world won't help if the staff is the one doing the abusing or turning a blind eye to it.

This amuses me because I remember you being resistant to those in-game logging options and I was a big proponent when we discussed the idea back on BSU. Not in a ha ha kind of way but in a... I guess sometimes I disagree with myself sort of way.

I don't think code is the answer, but sometimes I guess I do absolutely fight for code that will benefit people.

Shrug!

[faraday]

@Auspice said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

This amuses me because I remember you being resistant to those in-game logging options and I was a big proponent when we discussed the idea back on BSU.

Well I wasn't resistant to the idea, I was resistant to coding it into Ares because I worried that the "OMG you mean staff can dig into the database and read my pages!?!?!" hysteria would drive people away from playing on Ares games. In the end the demand for accessing pages via the portal reached critical mass, and I decided "eh, screw it, if you're gonna play on games where the staff is so untrustworthy you're worried that they're gonna go digging through your pages... the code is really the least of your problems."

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I was resistant to coding it into Ares because I worried that the "OMG you mean staff can dig into the database and read my pages!?!?!" hysteria would drive people away from playing on Ares games.

Didn't we once have a...discussion about how staff can access all that information anyway, so worrying about this kind of thing is pointless? (edit: Because you can't stop staff even if you wanted to.)

For the record to the world: This is why I'm for Soapbox and places like Soapbox and disagreeing with each other. If we settled, nothing would ever improve.

[Apos]

So a couple quick comments, first I want to echo @faraday with her comment of:

Tech is not the only answer, but I wholeheartedly believe it is an important part of the solution.

I think we should remember that tons of people aren't RPing in google docs, or an MMO client or some random chatroom or something because they think it's the best format for roleplay. It's just easy and accessible. There's an awful lot of good people that could be amazing game runners, but they both know running a game takes a tremendous amount of time, and even if they have that time, the initial investment of effort into setting it up is huge. Game in a box is the best counter to that. Most people aren't going to create a game unless they can do it as easily as they can open up a google doc or make a new server in discord, and what a MU format offers to make it worth it past that has to be pretty clear cut to people.

I think it's important to also realize that our hobby is really driven by enthusiasm and how willing people are to pour their creative energies into it. So games tend to have sudden bursts, as an idea takes root and everyone is excited by it, pours into it, and then tends to move on, the same way tabletop campaigns can build and wane. It's important that game setup is simple and easy enough so people that have that excitement can capitalize it, and not run into factors that stall it out. Ares is an excellent step in this direction.

@Thenomain said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

Just ping @Apos to give his top, mm, three to five things people should do or not do. Or one. I have confidence he could get it down into one.

We have a lot of people that have really different ideas of what they want out of games, and not everyone is going to be entirely honest even with themselves about what they want. I think with some people coming up on 30 years in this, most of you all with more experience have seen what makes healthy games probably more clearly than I have. But I think we could sum things up as like:

1. A safe, friendly environment that's welcoming. Feeling like a friend won't be creeped on if they invite them to the game. Being able to establish boundaries that are respected. Creating an environment that players feel comfortable in, and know they won't be abused.
2. Respecting the time and effort of everyone involved. It's a collaborative hobby, everyone is investing their time in it. Fairly recognizing it, never being dismissive of someone's contributions however invisible it might be to others. Whether someone gets into a game or stays in it often just comes down to whether they feel their time will be respected, or if they'll get invested only to have someone stomp on it.
3. Facilitating story and people finding RP. Creating an environment that makes it feel rewarding to be proactive and get stories going, where people feel comfortable reaching out to others. Whether it's completely organic of happenstance or whether it's ooc contact and building, there's healthy ways to encourage this and unhealthy blocks that have to be pushed back against.

These are pretty fragile things. If someone isn't invested, a single bad experience will usually sour them. If someone is invested, they could become very soured and become an active detriment to the game environment that's makes it unfun for other people and kills the environment.

[Prototart]

@Apos said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

So a couple quick comments, first I want to echo @faraday with her comment of:

Tech is not the only answer, but I wholeheartedly believe it is an important part of the solution.

I think we should remember that tons of people aren't RPing in google docs, or an MMO client or some random chatroom or something because they think it's the best format for roleplay. It's just easy and accessible.

there are also a lot of ppl who do that not because like they haven't heard the Good News about MUs but bc they once MUd and find those options limited as they are in a ton of ways to still be hugely preferable to dealing w MU culture

like, I basically agree w your points but I think it's important to realize that an environment that's "safe" by the standard of some ppl in this field is still going to be something that just, has a magnetic repulsion to a ton of normal people and i think people are so tunnel vision on what's become acceptable in MU culture that they fail to consider how insane it is to people who aren't in that milieu and when it gets brought up it usually just provokes sneering and gatekeeping when it gets acknowledged at all

which just, leads to ppl rping in google docs and discord while others wonders why everybody on one MU are the same guys who've been on like every single other one since 1990-whatever

[faraday]

There is no single "MU Culture". There are individual games with individual cultures based on the person running them and the people playing there.

No game is perfect, and you're bound to encounter jerks at some point any time you play with strangers on the internet. But there's no way I'd still be doing this after twenty years if I had to routinely encounter some of the straught-up bonkers insanity that some folks on these boards describe happening on other games.

Doomsaying about how awful "MU Culture" is doesn't help anybody. Setting aside games run by abusive psychos (because really why would you even want to play there), how can we improve? @ghost gave some ideas, there must be others.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

There is no single "MU Culture". There are individual games with individual cultures based on the person running them and the people playing there.

I concur in part and dissent in part. Yes, there are individual games with individual cultures based on the person running them, but there is still an overarching "MU Culture" that exists. That culture includes people who get some sense of satisfaction and enjoyment with interaction with other people online, mostly without direct visual contact, to play a game either collaboratively or within a defined set of rules and commands. Among those people (according to my experience here) consist of stay-at-home parents, people who work at home, people who have social anxiety issues, or people that simply like playing free-form role-playing games.

MU Culture can be distinguished, I believe, from other kinds of online games, like MMORPGs and online FPS games like Fortnite. So I think it has its own culture, however nebulous or myriad it may seem.

Doomsaying about how awful "MU Culture" is doesn't help anybody.

I concur in full..

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

So I think it has its own culture, however nebulous or myriad it may seem.

So what is it then? I don't say that to nitpick, but seriously I don't see a lot of common elements in the culture across different styles of MUs. Comic games seem very different from WoD games which are very different from BSG games which are very different from historical games, which are very different from Arx, etc. etc. etc.

Obviously we're all here for "online roleplay" in the broadest sense.
We can distinguish the playstyle from MUDs and play-by-forum, but is that really "culture"?
I dunno.

[Apos]

@Prototart said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

like, I basically agree w your points but I think it's important to realize that an environment that's "safe" by the standard of some ppl in this field is still going to be something that just, has a magnetic repulsion to a ton of normal people and i think people are so tunnel vision on what's become acceptable in MU culture that they fail to consider how insane it is to people who aren't in that milieu and when it gets brought up it usually just provokes sneering and gatekeeping when it gets acknowledged at all

I think it's important to understand that a lot of MUs, like Faraday says, have reeeeeally different cultures. Like reading the different comic MU threads are horrifying to me. The whole, 'it's just a joke bro!' or 'they are just misreading things!' from suggestive pages to me is mind boggling that it is tolerated, because of how creepy and offputting it is, and I would not be comfortable on games where that is accepted culturally.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I don't say that to nitpick, but seriously I don't see a lot of common elements in the culture across different styles of MUs. Comic games seem very different from WoD games which are very different from BSG games which are very different from historical games, which are very different from Arx, etc. etc. etc.

While the systems and some of the mores are different, I see a great deal of similarities. For example, everyone understands what "3PR" means or the concept of "ICA=ICC." And when talking about things like "pose-queuing" or "pose-prepping," when we communicate we seem to find the common ground or that we are talking about the same thing, but with different terms.

I think we focus on distinctions more than we ought. I think we should be talking about how we are similar, how other games have succeeded and failed, and how we can take the lessons learned and apply them broadly.

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

For example, everyone understands what "3PR" means or the concept of "ICA=ICC."

That's kind of my point though... there are consent-based MUs where "ICA=ICC" is just not a thing. And I had gone much of my MU career without ever encountering "3PR" pose style. (When I did I was so so happy.) There are games where people are all like: "Pose order? What's that? Lol what a weird concept."

Absolutely there are some behaviors that are common to some clusters of MUs. If you want to call the conglomeration of stuff "MU Culture" I can accept that, but I'm hard-pressed to think of many things that are universal.

[Auspice]

@Ganymede said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

that we are talking about the same thing, but with different terms.

Go to 5 different companies in the same industry and none will have matching in-house terminology (be it names for things, acronyms, or whathaveyou). However, the end meaning is the same.

What WF calls a 'scrimmage,' I've always known as a stress test. I only needed it defined once and I'm good by it.

We absolutely need to let go of our need to have specific, set, absolute agreed upon terms. MUD and old school and new school are all gonna have different ways of saying the same things.

Anyone who played on Ansible will remember that their definition of 'twinking' was what most of us know as 'powerposing.' Whereas most of us know 'twinking' as playing outside your means, being OP, however you wanna describe 'This person is insisting they can do things they can't.' There's potential overlap, but they aren't 1=1. However, whenever I was playing Ansible I accepted their definition because it was their game.

We're smart cookies. We can, once made aware of the differences (my learning what 'pose queuing' meant to others is a good example!) follow the bouncing ball and pick right on up and continue. We need to stop calling everything to a halt to go 'No! That's not the term I use!'

[Ghost]

Every few months or so I get really loud and shake my cane in the air, like I'm some angry old bastard on a porch littered with Budweiser cans:

"THAT'S METAGAMING GOT-DAMMAT."

And a few people will agree, and others will go "No, metagaming is when..."

You know what the community could do? Create MSB posts designed to define metagaming as a conmunity(and link the posts on message boards on games seeking input) that are designed to repeatedly edit the original post. Create a poll: "Are you happy with these definitions?" when it reaches a certain percentage after time, post THOSE definitions as policies.

The community ABSOLUTELY CAN utilize MSB to create community definitions and bylines on things like harassment and metagaming, and carry those from game to game.

Hell, it would be absolutely possible to create a series of guidelines: Harassment, Metagaming, Inclusiveness, Anti-Bullying, etc and wrap them all up as some kind of "COMMUNITY STANDARDS CERTIFIED" label that staff publicly state they support and uphold. Then, games could say things like:

Battlestar Galactica Part 10 is a COMMUNITY STANDARDS CERTIFIED game...

[Ganymede]

@Ghost

Yeah, I don't think we'll be doing that.

[faraday]

@Auspice said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

We need to stop calling everything to a halt to go 'No! That's not the term I use!'

I'm less concerned with the word than the behavior itself. (Shared terminology is nice and all, but that's not what defines a culture.)

Take one of the examples @Ghost used: metagaming.

I don't think our clashes are over the definition of the word, but the behaviors surrounding it. One game X, it's perfectly legit (even encouraged) to look at someone's sheet/wiki, pick something out, and use that as a hook to generate RP. "Hey our chars both surf - let's do a surfing scene." On game Y, that exact same behavior would be scandalous. On game Z it's not even a concept because they don't have public sheets/wikis/etc.

You could say the same about scene organization, pose order, background writing, consent... pretty much every aspect of roleplaying I can think of. That's what I'm talking about when I say that the culture is wildly variable across games.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

@Ghost

Yeah, I don't think we'll be doing that.

Why not, though?

I think at this point of the conversation we are discussing how language and habits differ from game to game. Staffers, game-runners, and players all have opinions on what good behavior consists of.

While this community might not be great at communicating with each other without fighting, really the only way to start getting everyone on the same page is to baseline some concepts and work together to define them.

SHAKA WHEN THE WALLS FELL

[Lotherio]

@Ghost said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

Every few months or so I get really loud and shake my cane in the air

Only every few months? ... oh oh, just on this topic, gotcha.