How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep

Dropbear

@Arkandel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

That's it. There's no reason to pull people aside or bring out the big guns. Policing doesn't need to be heavy handed 100% of the time.

it doesn't need to be heavy handed 100% of the time

policing also doesn't always need to be used

Auspice

@Derp said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

Because your response is basically: 'I don't give a shit as a player or a staffer.'

That was not my response. I specifically said that I would act on it if a complaint is lodged, and do so swiftly. That is not at all 'not giving a shit'.

'Well sure you have logs and evidence of this behavior and the threats against the victim, but the VICTIM hasn't said anything so......... welp. this person can keep doing what they're doing.'

So, let me just say this bluntly -- you, as a third party, don't get to decide that someone is a victim of anything. Period. That is a decision between the affected person and the adjudicator of fact. You can believe that someone is a victim, and encourage them to speak up, but you don't get to slap that label on them.

I'm pretty sure scenarios in which someone has told me they're upset, they feel threatened, they feel uncomfortable, but they're too scared to speak up because of aforementioned threats equal someone being a victim.

But in those situations, when I've gone to Staff on their behalf, I've been told 'Sorry, unless that person says something, our hands are tied.'

And it sounds like you'd do the exact same thing. And that's depressing.

Derp

@Auspice

That also isn't the scenario that you originally presented. Your scenario was 'I see behavior that I think might be creepy but I am afraid / don't know how to approach the other person about it'. Not 'person has come to me and said that something is making them uncomfortable'.

Those are two distinctly different scenarios. In the event that you come to me and say 'hey, person X says that they are uncomfortable with situation Y', I will thank you for bringing it to my attention and go speak to person X.

Derp

@Arkandel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

Sometimes it can be as easy as paging someone with a simple "hey, it came to my attention Bob has been flirting with your character pretty heavily. I'm just checking if that's okay with you".

Sure.

And sometimes that behavior can be problematic on its own.

Staff paging you out of the blue about a scenario that you're enjoying? Is a good way to make your players paranoid that you're spying on them, or secretly disapprove of their behavior and are low-key letting them know that you're keeping an eye on them.

Look, sometimes, less is more. You want me to do something? All you have to do is tell me to do something.

Auspice

@Derp said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

@Auspice

That also isn't the scenario that you originally presented. Your scenario was 'I see behavior that I think might be creepy but I am afraid / don't know how to approach the other person about it'. Not 'person has come to me and said that something is making them uncomfortable'.

Those are two distinctly different scenarios. In the event that you come to me and say 'hey, person X says that they are uncomfortable with situation Y', I will thank you for bringing it to my attention and go speak to person X.

You're the one that brought 'as a staffer' into the discussion.
I began the discussion with 'as a player.' I was never discussing this from the staffing perspective. You came in, fists swinging, accusing people of behaving like children who need you to hold their hand and being, frankly, an asshole about it.

I witnessed something that made me incredibly uncomfortable and wondered hey, how have other people handled this as a player.

In theory I would be within right to report to staff based merely on that merit.

In practice, almost every Staffer I've ever encountered would laugh me out of the +job.

So I was asking people, from the perspective of a player.

You may have begun your post with 'as a player and a staffer,' but every part of it was from the lofty, condescending attitude of 'as a staffer, I expect people to....'

It did not approach the thread in the manner it was intended.

Derp

@Auspice

Look, I like you too, and we tend to get along in these things, but in this case, I think you're just flat-out wrong. And that's fine. We don't have to agree on everything.

I told you when I would be willing to act, in multiple scenarios, and when I think it's inappropriate to act. In this situation, I think that it's inappropriate for me to act. I think it's also inappropriate for you to act.

But different games will have different standards. There is no universal here.

All I can do is give my own perspective.

ETA: To make the 'as a player and a staffer' clear --

As a player, I wouldn't do shit because it's none of my damned business. If someone says something to me, then I'll direct it to the people whose business it is, and encourage said player to do the same.

JinShei

In the past, as a staffer, I've got this one wrong and not challenged when I should. Some people who read this forum know when and what that is. I've hopefully learnt from that and am more assertive these days!

As a player, I think I have an advantage over male players, because checking in with other women is normal and the radar for creeps is possibly stronger from practice irl. "I know it might be fun, but I just wanted to check-in - is he making you uncomfortable?" Even if he isn't and it is all ok, it is usually a welcome thing

I would ask these days...

mietze

I think there's always a risk for checking in or intervening.

The line for when your gut is telling you that its good information for staff to know is going to be situational, personal, and frankly how much you think staff gives shit (which admittedly is not much on many places).

While I do/have intervened icly by calling out ic behavior in scene (if its appropriate for the personality or status of my pc to do so) or more classical RL strategies of coming over to talk to the person being targeted to give them either an out from engaging with someone who is targeting them or to get a better read on how they react, that also can get some heat (esp if the person is using ic to be inappropriate/aggressive with ooc motivations). It is a difficult thing to balance. But hey, if they are doing this in public (whether that is two people getting jollies forcing others to watch, someone targeting someone in public or at a scene they feel they must be at so that the creeper has access/cant be avoided as easily, whatever) ICly I think its okay to incorporate ic responses to it in your own poses. Sometimes that is enough to get the other person to page you with a "s/he wont leave me alone," if they are feeling uncomfortable too.

faraday

@Arkandel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

Sometimes it can be as easy as paging someone with a simple "hey, it came to my attention Bob has been flirting with your character pretty heavily. I'm just checking if that's okay with you".

I have a problem with the idea that ICly flirting (even coming on strong) is a red flag worthy of staff concern and/or intervention. Most MUs have as much IC relationship drama as the average Shondaland soap opera. If it's IC, deal with it IC. Tell them to go away, throw a drink in their face, call over a bouncer, etc.

There's only reason to be concerned if there's an OOC component. Like if the target of their affections can't get any public RP without being harassed by this person, or has asked them to leave them alone and they won't, OOCly creepy chat remarks, etc. In those cases, I agree with @Derp that the onus is on the player to speak up. I'm not going to get involved, as a player or a staffer, unless they've given me some indication that there's a problem.

(Side note - I think it's fine for a concerned friend to complain on their behalf, but that complaint needs to be substantiated either by logs or by the target confirming that something is amiss. I can talk to them, but I'm not going to white-knight for someone who's denying that anything's wrong.)

mietze

@JinShei yeah, this is def part of it for me. I have checked in with other women RL, its kind of a thing, I have done it online for the same reason.

Ghost

My two cents

In my experience most players don't directly deal with harassment/creeping by setting quick, clear boundaries, giving warnings, and reporting to staff when harassment continues. IME most players gauge whether or not handling the creeper would negatively impact their ability to find roleplay by means of rumor-spreading, if they're popular with staff, or they'll be blocked from plots. Fear of retaliation is so pervasive in the hobby that most players I've met choose to hide from it or weather it instead of take steps to end it.

If I had a quarter for every time someone paged me with some story about how "X person is stalking them but just leave it alone, one scene here and there and they stop" I'd have a month's subscription to WoW paid off.

So here's the problem:

This is a judgy hobby. What you perceive as creepy may be a known IC factor on someone else's part, or may not be considered creepy by the 3rd party you think is getting creeped on. Be careful to not jump the gun.
While it may seem friendly, jumping the gun on another player's behalf takes that fear of retaliation decision out of their hands. People need to speak up and ask for help, but really unless it's something really, really, really obviously wrong and you have a log of it, the true weight of reporting harassment falls onto the target player. In theory, complaining on someone's behalf when they don't yet deem it necessary may not actually be on their behalf, but on yours, so best self-check on that.
if it's all IC...then let it be IC. Creepy or not, what you perceive to be creepiness should, in theory, be treated with and dealt with ICly. The reason these things get fucked up is because of OOC influences. Pressure, guilt, etc can all be dealt with ICly if it's all IC with far better results than OOC, so be grateful if it's kept IC. Be even more grateful if it's a game that allows for PK.

In the end, I think it's far better to be supportive of people who are being creeped on to be the engine for their own safety.

Ganymede

@Derp said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

So, let me just say this bluntly -- you, as a third party, don't get to decide that someone is a victim of anything. Period.

I concur.

Players are not mandatory reporters. And, arguably, players should not by fiat be considered too incompetent to report abuse (which is why we have mandatory reporters). In the proffered scenario, you can report to staff, but I can understand why staff would be very hesitant to jump in.

And for the reasons already stated by Derp, I would not act and kindly tell the reporter to have the alleged victim make a report if he/she/it at any time feels victimized.

Alamias

I'll be the first to admit that I played an IC Creep. He was built to be a sleazy 'Girls Gone Wild' porn producer type that would band anyone that let him, but that is not my RL personality at all. Maybe because I played him so over the top I never (to my knowledge) ever received any complaints OOCly about him, and people tended to deal with him ICly.

If this is IC creep on a character, then it should be dealt with IC, but maybe I am missing the point?

Arkandel

@Alamias It's probably easier to catch based on the game. A concept that might fit a nWoD MUSH could be really out of place on a superhero or a Harry Potter one.

Auspice

@Alamias said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

I'll be the first to admit that I played an IC Creep. He was built to be a sleazy 'Girls Gone Wild' porn producer type that would band anyone that let him, but that is not my RL personality at all. Maybe because I played him so over the top I never (to my knowledge) ever received any complaints OOCly about him, and people tended to deal with him ICly.

If this is IC creep on a character, then it should be dealt with IC, but maybe I am missing the point?

One can usually tell the difference. I've played male PCs who are 'playas' as it were. And tbh, it usually comes across in: being over-the-top flirty and 'Ladies, ladies, there's enough of me to go around' style attitude versus...

'You're the only one for me'
'Name blushes profusely as she looks his way'

The white knight, the overly romantic 'husband' material ........ who is somehow in a deeply committed relationship with multiple women at the same time.

Those are the creeps we usually see pop up.

Lonely Island's The Creep style of guys can actually be an amusing concept to see and observing it from an OOC scale, you can usually identify 'OK, this person is actively aware of what they're playing. Coo'.'

But the guy who seems to be collecting a harem of women meant to be latched onto him and him alone while he's juggling six of them? That's fucked up.

Alamias

@Arkandel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

@Alamias It's probably easier to catch based on the game. A concept that might fit a nWoD MUSH could be really out of place on a superhero or a Harry Potter one.

Well, I would doubt a porn producer concept would get approved on a superhero or HP MU in the first place to be a problem IC, but valid point.

Alamias

@Auspice That may be fucked up, but there are plenty of RL people out there that are serial cheaters like that so it would make sense that someone would be playing one of those IC as well. I'm failing to see how OOC actions need to be taken, especially from a third party that isn't part of it?

As I said, maybe I am missing the point of this thread entirely, but it just sounds like IC actions that should have IC resolutions. If your character is witness to this, then approach IC and ruin the guys day.

mietze

One of my current PC used to send horrible poetry to pretty ladies that caught her eye as well as flirting in scenes before RL weasels stole my energy/creativity for awhile and she has via ic happenings and growth turned into a much more reserved personality. I dont know I would have ever called her a creeper even at her most cheesy but you can flirt outrageously ic and still make sure to not cross lines. I almost always asked if people wanted dorky messengers. If someone in scene made it clear they icly the attention wasn't warranted the PC is courtly enough to immediately back off. There are ways you can do it while giving people an easy out.

Derp

@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:

'You're the only one for me'
'Name blushes profusely as she looks his way'
The white knight, the overly romantic 'husband' material ........ who is somehow in a deeply committed relationship with multiple women at the same time.
Those are the creeps we usually see pop up.
...But the guy who seems to be collecting a harem of women meant to be latched onto him and him alone while he's juggling six of them? That's fucked up.

You know, I would see a red flag here. Just not the one you're seeing.

This is all IC, in that scenario. Character presents as white knight material, but is secretly something else.

That's fine. If you report that to me, I'll advise you to act on it IC. Go talk to the other women. Have them run into each other and start talking about their boyfriend, and put the pieces together. Go full-on Carrie Underwood and have them take a baseball bat to his shiny pickup and carve their names into his leather seats.

But if you ask staff to make a judgment about a player based on the actions of his PC, I'm probably going to red flag that, because that is a pretty distinct blurring of IC/OOC lines. That, to me, is a red flag.

Can you imagine what sort of hobby this would be if all of us were judged OOC based on the actions of our PCs? (Moreso than we already are.)

Every Daeva would be a secret rapist. Every werewolf would be a violent psychopath. Every superhero would be dangerously delusional.

If there's some kind of OOC component, that might be actionable. But if it's just IC? Ngh.

Tinuviel

If there is a situation with two other people that makes me uncomfortable, I leave that situation. If that situation is breaking a rule or a law, I report it, else I mind my own business. It's not my place to assume, it's not my place to interject or act the brave and caring knight.

"If that were me, I would be bugging the fuck out right now" doesn't matter. I'm terrified of snakes, that doesn't mean everyone is terrified of snakes and so I shouldn't intervene every time a snake is involved.