What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?

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It looks like a mildly modified 2e game is what people are after. Conditions/tilts and aspirations/xp seem to be the sticking points and those are not hard to tweak.

Just listing conditions with easily readable and linkable effects would make them much easier.

XP is the trickier pony but having base xp with a smaller amount earnable through aspirations to supplement feels like a good idea to me. (My justification being people -should- benefit from playing to them but not drastically outpace more casual players. We have to look at the playerbase as a whole and not discourage those of us who cannot devote as much time to the hobby we all love.)

So. Step 1 is in process, which is to choose a game system. Step 2. I have been talking with a few people but have not nailed down a primary coder. I don't expect a @Thenomain to fall into my lap but if someone wants to step up that would allow us to move forward. Our code needs are as follows:

An existing codebase that can run 2e splats. A cgen that coddles players is preferred.
The ability to document and create efficient in game help files.
Standard channel capabilities.

Our code desires, non-required, are as follows:

A complete lack of spy code. Players should feel safe.
An anonymous report system that goes directly to HR staff to protect players who need to file complaints.
For the system to be as plug and play as possible with as little upkeep as possible. I will straight up pay a coder for help if needed (though not as much as you deserve or require to survive) but ideally it won't require a coder's precious time very often.

If you are interested in the project drop me a line and we can set up a discord server.

Lisse24

Please don't take this harshly, because it's not meant in that way, just to get you thinking a bit more:

I have a lot of cynicism when it comes to WoD games, because IMO, the way the game is structured leads to lots of sitting and chatting in the OOC room and not so much RP. I have nothing against people who want to connect to a game and chat OOC, but if I can't find RP when I'm around and available to RP, then the game doesn't really work.

I honestly don't care about the system. I'd prefer not to have to constantly think up short-term aspirations, but it's not a breaking point for me. What is a breaking point is not being able to find RP.

With that being said, have you put any thought into what you're going to do in order to promote an active grid and prevent stagnation?

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@Lisse24 Strong PrP policy and dynamic metaplot played out through individual focused microplots.

Which is buzzspeak for 'There will be a metaplot that is played out, ideally, through microplots directed at individual players or their friendship circle if they have one.'

Nothing is worse for a game than ennui. Players need to log in and feel engaged... But not pressured. I would love to have people sign up for plot-slots and just go down the list running stuff directed at them. It will require a heavier ST staff which will likely be the difficult part.

As for aspirations? They will be available but not a main focus. The xp you get from them will be less than free weekly xp. (I have not hammered out the xp policy yet. I only started working on this last night and would prefer to collaborate with others on core game mechanics and policies.)

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As an addendum: An idea I had was to to issue every IC group a ST bit. Every motley and cabal and pack and coterie would be given a ST bit to use amongst themselves and be handed a piece of plot to work at. Fight this evil group. Protect this area. Reclaim this lost relic. Etcetera.

That is a bit sticky and I don't have fine details yet but this was something I wanted to try years ago with a project that was poorly timed.

Derp

@Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

An existing codebase that can run 2e splats. A cgen that coddles players is preferred.

Theno already has this fully coded (ETA: for Mux). It's not -quite- copy/paste but it's not insanely difficult to install, if you do it carefully.

Also, the chargen coddles the hell out of players with cg/check. Make the red turn green. It's not 100% foolproof, and it still requires a quick skim, but it's pretty hard to f**k it up.

Deleted

@Derp That sounds fantastic. I would still prefer a coder on staff to handle the installation and accompanying hiccups though. Handling code is important and having someone dedicated to it is also important.

Derp

@Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Derp That sounds fantastic. I would still prefer a coder on staff to handle the installation and accompanying hiccups though. Handling code is important and having someone dedicated to it is also important.

Oh, for sure. Just saying that for this part, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. The wheel blueprints are available.

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@Derp Absolutely. I do not want custom code at all. Just plug and play that people are familiar with.

Though if I could get the code for that V20 game that ran a while back I would be all over it. The cgen was beautiful.

Arkandel

@Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Lisse24 Strong PrP policy and dynamic metaplot played out through individual focused microplots.

Which is buzzspeak for 'There will be a metaplot that is played out, ideally, through microplots directed at individual players or their friendship circle if they have one.'

Nothing is worse for a game than ennui. Players need to log in and feel engaged... But not pressured. I would love to have people sign up for plot-slots and just go down the list running stuff directed at them. It will require a heavier ST staff which will likely be the difficult part.

As for aspirations? They will be available but not a main focus. The xp you get from them will be less than free weekly xp. (I have not hammered out the xp policy yet. I only started working on this last night and would prefer to collaborate with others on core game mechanics and policies.)

Yes, I agree. I'm always surprised game-runners don't see this - sandbox games do not work. Plot is essential unless (or perhaps even if) you have 40-50+ players on the game to carry on momentum more organically.

If I log on and there's nothing for me to do and nothing on the horizon to fuel RP (say by checking +events) then I'll stop logging on.

XP is not the problem. It's a paper tiger. It's idleness that kills game after game. This cannot be fixed via systemic changes, it requires active recruitment of STs and promoting those plots aggressively.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

XP is not the problem. It's a paper tiger. It's idleness that kills game after game. This cannot be fixed via systemic changes, it requires active recruitment of STs and promoting those plots aggressively.

I concur in part and dissent in part. A game should focus on how it will keep the players occupied, first and foremost, but your advancement system is important to its longevity and continued success.

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

XP is not the problem. It's a paper tiger. It's idleness that kills game after game. This cannot be fixed via systemic changes, it requires active recruitment of STs and promoting those plots aggressively.

I concur in part and dissent in part. A game should focus on how it will keep the players occupied, first and foremost, but your advancement system is important to its longevity and continued success.

Oh I agree. But I think the importance of XP is vastly overrated and over-discussed compared to aspects of games that matter far more.

It's not unlike the debating "which city should I choose for my nWoD game?". It's still a factor but not that big a deal. Both Haunted Memories and The Reach both had very liberal XP policies, they were based in dramatically different settings yet they both drew a hell of a lot of people.

Groth

I think that rather then 1e vs 2e, I would like to see a nWoD project that implements their own entirely custom ruleset that's designed for MU* from the ground up rather then a hacky implementation of a tabletop system.

You're going to have to come up with countless house rules for XP progression, mental powers on PCs, power economy etc anyhow so why not do it thoroughly?

When it comes to XP progression, what I do like about beats is that because each beat is justified, it means you can look at your own beat history and it provides a nice little timeline of what your character has been doing.

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

XP is not the problem. It's a paper tiger. It's idleness that kills game after game. This cannot be fixed via systemic changes, it requires active recruitment of STs and promoting those plots aggressively.

I don't think ST run plots are quite that required. As RfK showed while it was around and Arx is demonstrating right now, you can really drive a lot of RP by giving players the feeling they're controlling some aspect of the game world and get to engage in some amount of meaningful politics with eachother over it. It does require you to have people willing to set up a large amount of code for you however.

Arkandel

@Groth said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

XP is not the problem. It's a paper tiger. It's idleness that kills game after game. This cannot be fixed via systemic changes, it requires active recruitment of STs and promoting those plots aggressively.

I don't think ST run plots are quite that required. As RfK showed while it was around and Arx is demonstrating right now, you can really drive a lot of RP by giving players the feeling they're controlling some aspect of the game world and get to engage in some amount of meaningful politics with eachother over it. It does require you to have people willing to set up a large amount of code for you however.

Do not underestimate the effect regularly having 60+ active players around has on being able to find stuff to do.

That's not the case for most nWoD games which peak in... the 40s range? And usually have 20-30 players on.

See the issue isn't whether there's a ST explicitly tossing plot around. It's the idea that players know in advance plot is available and, more importantly, when it will happen. There's a time and a place involved, so if they show up they are going to participate in... something.

Many nWoD games are caught in a perpetuating trap of mutually assured inactivity when you log on, look around, find nothing to do and go idle (or log off) then I log on, look around... and so on.

Limiting XP doesn't do anything positive and it might even damage their potential by placing the upper half of cool powers out of reach for the first few months on MU* which effectively won't last for that long anyway.

Aspirations don't fix it either because although they are organic they require interesting RP to be happening in the first place whereas PrPs both generate and reward RP at the same time.

Groth

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Do not underestimate the effect regularly having 60+ active players around has on being able to find stuff to do.

That's not the case for most nWoD games which peak in... the 40s range? And usually have 20-30 players on.

See the issue isn't whether there's a ST explicitly tossing plot around. It's the idea that players know in advance plot is available and, more importantly, when it will happen. There's a time and a place involved, so if they show up they are going to participate in... something.

In my opinion that kind of pre-scheduled 'plot scene' is almost universally horrible for everyone involved because it's just too many players in the same place at the same time. Unless the game is extremely small, I think it makes more sense to handle the plot like Arx does it where it by and large happens discreetly through bluebooking, private scenes and story emits.

Many nWoD games are caught in a perpetuating trap of mutually assured inactivity when you log on, look around, find nothing to do and go idle (or log off) then I log on, look around... and so on.

Limiting XP doesn't do anything positive and it might even damage their potential by placing the upper half of cool powers out of reach for the first few months on MU* which effectively won't last for that long anyway.

Aspirations don't fix it either because although they are organic they require interesting RP to be happening in the first place whereas PrPs both generate and reward RP at the same time.

While it sounds attractive to have all the 'cool powers' I think that it isn't really great for the game for everyone to run around with enormous powers. It makes it much harder to create engaging plotlines and ensure that the local setting makes some amount of sense. World of Darkness works a lot better as a MU* when players are on the lower end of the power scale imho.

Arkandel

@Groth said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

In my opinion that kind of pre-scheduled 'plot scene' is almost universally horrible for everyone involved because it's just too many players in the same place at the same time. Unless the game is extremely small, I think it makes more sense to handle the plot like Arx does it where it by and large happens discreetly through bluebooking, private scenes and story emits.

Actually very few things scale on a MU* as well as PrPs do. One Storyteller can run scenes for 3-5 people and plant story seeds and hooks that can last them for days or weeks (which I can attest to since I've been on both sides of that equation).

I think you are making the assumption here that there will be a very limited number of PrPs and a very small number of STs all running unrestricted scenes. This doesn't need to be the case - it's perfectly within a ST's prerogative to limit how many characters can join their PrP, and for staff to stagger the players involved so the same super-active people don't show up for every single one.

While it sounds attractive to have all the 'cool powers' I think that it isn't really great for the game for everyone to run around with enormous powers. It makes it much harder to create engaging plotlines and ensure that the local setting makes some amount of sense. World of Darkness works a lot better as a MU* when players are on the lower end of the power scale imho.

Obviously I can't argue your preference. My argument though is that what typically causes issues isn't power per se but a disparity between characters' power levels which is a separate issue. Yes, if you have two people with 20 XP spent and another two who've spend 50 XP it's a problem when it comes to balancing the encounter, but I believe the answer is not to run a poverty game where everyone is equally inept.

Also consider this: There are many games (including ones running right now) where some people are far more powerful than others despite XP starvation because they can milk aspiration XPs better.

mietze

I think many games really have the intent for dynamic personal storytelling, but as is mentioned frequently even finding enough prp runners and STs that will stay active and also willing to run for most everyone is a challenge. Especially on a huge take all comers game with multiple specialized rulesets. So while I support the effort to do so I hope people will actually be willing to help the staff on the game towards that rather than stand in the corner with arms crossed waiting for someone to come to them and prove it will be different this time.

Misadventure

Because I like to make work and suck all the fun out of everything:

Maybe it would be helpful to have a little code that:

Lets you input and show resolution of Aspirations
Lets you see your history of Aspirations
Lets you select from a staff and player generated list of more general short and long term aspirations
Lets you select aspirations that are tagged as communal in some fashion, AND have staff or someone able to see how many players are trying to see whats up at the Elm street house with those ghosts

tragedyjones

Chronicles of Darkness is a superior system to nWoD 1 in all ways, in what it is designed to do - be an amazing system for a group of players and an ST. It is not at all designed with a MU in mind.

Derp

@tragedyjones said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Chronicles of Darkness is a superior system to nWoD 1 in all ways, in what it is designed to do - be an amazing system for a group of players and an ST. It is not at all designed with a MU in mind.

This is literally what we've been saying about every game ever created though. "These were all made for tabletop, they were not created for MU." That isn't even WoD specific. You can say that about anything from DnD to Fate. That isn't a damnation of the system, it's a reality of games in general.

Misadventure

@Derp However, the more games move away from a tactical exercise and towards finding balance within each tabletop group, the harder it is to use the game as written. The meta-narrative economy of most games completely fails in a persistent large group setting. The more the game design depends on this economy, which typically more modern games do more of, the worse it is. MUDs at the procedural end are just repetitious. Games without extensive systems to occupy player progress and thought (see the popularity of crafting, security, and ward making in every game) just have less meat on the bones to obfuscate what's going on.

It's not a HUGE difference, but I will note the undead-like stamina of games on the more procedural end as compared to game types that are purely narrative.

I don't think nWoD 2.0 is significantly more crippled than nWoD 1.0 or oWoD, save the settings "seem" more fluid, and so ungrounded, and so up in the air as to player direction. Then again, we can always RP about the gathering of resources and skills to make that next haut couture dress for the Kings Gala.