Separating Art From Artist
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@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Of course, Lovecraft died in 1937, so by buying one of his books you aren't supporting a non-profit dedicated to the removal of civil rights the way you are by picking up Ender's Game.
Fuck. Yea. Dude. Fistbump. Orson Scott Card. Ugh.
As for Twain, I know. I was trying to be a bit more tongue in cheek when I wrote that. Clemens wasn't a hateful racist. In fact, the point of Huck and Jim's relationship was actually intended to be positive, so all n-bombs aside theres this part of me that still kind of feels that changing the writing to Harper Jum doesn't change the story, but it does lessen Twain's often brilliant tongue in cheek wisdom.
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@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
ETA: But those dudes asking for lolli scenes on PenDes and other games like that aren't some vision of Jeremy Irons or Poulter going "I was challenged by this role to the point that I sought therapy after writing this horrible, horrible role...". Nah, those guys are more like "let me do my thing".
Yeah. We've been through this before. Several times. It's old, now.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel It applied to the concept of separating the art from artist. That's the last I'm gonna say about it in this thread.
I should just type up an essay on it on livejournal and then post a tinyurl link to it if it comes up again, kinda like my whole SSH vs telnet thing.
<insert repeat of other threads in a pre-prepared format thank you by-eeee>
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Tinuviel It applied to the concept of separating the art from artist. That's the last I'm gonna say about it in this thread.
I should just type up an essay on it on livejournal and then post a tinyurl link to it if it comes up again, kinda like my whole SSH vs telnet thing.
<insert repeat of other threads in a pre-prepared format thank you by-eeee>
It's just going to be us shouting "fuck you, I'm right in this very particular and semantically specific way" back and forth at each other until the universe dies.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Tinuviel It applied to the concept of separating the art from artist. That's the last I'm gonna say about it in this thread.
I should just type up an essay on it on livejournal and then post a tinyurl link to it if it comes up again, kinda like my whole SSH vs telnet thing.
<insert repeat of other threads in a pre-prepared format thank you by-eeee>
It's just going to be us shouting "fuck you, I'm right in this very particular and semantically specific way" back and forth at each other until the universe dies.
If humans could harness this scenario into a form of clean, renewable energy, our energy bills would be about $0.02 per month.
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Tinuviel It applied to the concept of separating the art from artist. That's the last I'm gonna say about it in this thread.
I should just type up an essay on it on livejournal and then post a tinyurl link to it if it comes up again, kinda like my whole SSH vs telnet thing.
<insert repeat of other threads in a pre-prepared format thank you by-eeee>
It's just going to be us shouting "fuck you, I'm right in this very particular and semantically specific way" back and forth at each other until the universe dies.
If humans could harness this scenario into a form of clean, renewable energy, our energy bills would be about $0.02 per month.
Perpetual Objection Machine.
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It's an emotive topic, but I actually don't think the whether or not it's OK to play a sexy 5 year old is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, to be honest. And when initially replying I felt on the defensive because I assumed this was going to turn into a game of gotcha. 'So you think it's OK to burn books do you, but where were you when people were playing lolis???'
So if people are still down for playing ball on this thread, let me steer it away, perhaps, from the subject of paedophilia and religious sensibilities, which is always going to result in needless aggression.
In terms of a RPer (and we're being pretentious here and referring to ourselves as artists) playing a character (and we're calling that art, too), at what point do you separate the person behind the keyboard from the character they're playing?
Tamer examples:
(to hopefully result in more productive discussion)- I'm playing a jerk, and my character is being mean and rude to everyone. Does that reflect badly on who I am as a person OOCly? Where do you draw the line and how can you tell?
- You happen to know OOCly that I, the player, am a racist-sexist-homophobic-whatever. My character on the other hand is super nice and cute and likeable and you really like my writing style. Can we RP?
Basically, how relevant is what you know about me, the player — or conversely, how you feel about my character — to your willingness engage with the other side?
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And hey, here's a hot take:
Stop whining about cancel culture, you fucking hothouse flowers. People are allowed to call a work a piece of shit. People are allowed to call out when a work is being racist. People are allowed to decide not to pay for something and to tell their friends not to pay for something, and even to let the distributors know why they aren't paying for something. Creators aren't owed a goddamn audience, they maintain one.
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@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:
In terms of a RPer (and we're being pretentious here and referring to ourselves as artists) playing a character (and we're calling that art, too), at what point do you separate the person behind the keyboard from the character they're playing?
If it comes out of the character's mouth, it's the character until and unless I learn credible information that the player is a raging twat. End of.
@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:
You happen to know OOCly that I, the player, am a racist-sexist-homophobic-whatever. My character on the other hand is super nice and cute and likeable and you really like my writing style. Can we RP?
No. If I have proof, I'll work my hardest to get rid of you.
@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Stop whining about cancel culture, you fucking hothouse flowers. People are allowed to call a work a piece of shit. People are allowed to call out when a work is being racist. People are allowed to decide not to pay for something and to tell their friends not to pay for something, and even to let the distributors know why they aren't paying for something.
That's not Cancel Culture(tm). At least not as far as I understand it. Airing legitimate grievances is one thing. The lightspeed reaction of the internet declaring THIS PERSON IS NOW UNFIT FOR SOCIETY based on nothing other than someone said something to someone once a decade ago and that means they're horrible evil fascists is more what I'm railing against. The speed of outrage is ridiculous, and the drama always flies faster than the correction.
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I'ma reply with two semi-contradictory hot takes on this topic.
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@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
That's not Cancel Culture(tm). At least not as far as I understand it. Airing legitimate grievances is one thing. The lightspeed reaction of the internet declaring THIS PERSON IS NOW UNFIT FOR SOCIETY based on nothing other than someone said something to someone once a decade ago and that means they're horrible evil fascists is more what I'm railing against. The speed of outrage is ridiculous, and the drama always flies faster than the correction.
I mean, if we're talking about the ability of the internet to generate shitbag stand-alone complexes who harass, dox, SWAT, and otherwise torment people? Yeah, that is a capital-P problem and I legit have no idea how to fix it (especially as long as legislators and LEOs persist in considering internet crime make-believe).
In terms of what you, @Pandora and @Ghost are decrying as "censorship" in this thread, that the Millennial/Zoomer Outrage Machine is going to banish someone's work to the outer dark over a minor infraction? Nah. Not a thing.
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@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
In terms of what you, @Pandora and @Ghost are decrying as "censorship" in this thread
Did you actually read what I wrote? And the subsequent... entire end of the discussion?
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@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:
At what point do you separate the person behind the keyboard from the character they're playing?
At the point when consent is obtained or not.
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@GreenFlashlight said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:
At what point do you separate the person behind the keyboard from the character they're playing?
At the point when consent is obtained or not.
I... what?
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@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Of course, Lovecraft died in 1937, so by buying one of his books you aren't supporting a non-profit dedicated to the removal of civil rights the way you are by picking up Ender's Game.
Fuck. Yea. Dude. Fistbump. Orson Scott Card. Ugh.
As for Twain, I know. I was trying to be a bit more tongue in cheek when I wrote that. Clemens wasn't a hateful racist. In fact, the point of Huck and Joe's relationship was actually intended to be positive, so all n-bombs aside theres this part of me that still kind of feels that changing the writing to Harper Joe doesn't change the story, but it does lessen Twain's often brilliant tongue in cheek wisdom.
I'm not disagreeing with you on that. The contrast of the ugly and reflexive racism in the society with the human relationship between Jim and Huck is a big part of what was being conveyed, and taking it away lessens that.
But when I've heard about the wording being bowlderized, it's (almost?) always been in the context of primary school education. Specifically, the effect of the word being repeatedly used and its discomforting and alienating effects on black students, especially black students in a majority-white classroom.
I don't support making copies of the unaltered text unavailable. Fortunately, no one is doing that or suggesting that be done! In a circumstance where it's less of an issue, or in higher education settings where it's more possible to give the work a deeper investigation and place it in a more complete context, the work can (I'd say 'should' but I have no basis for this but literary snobbery) be taken as originally written. Bowlderizing the language isn't any different from editing the text to clarify the characters' heavy dialects, which I've also seen done in several contexts.
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@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Bowlderizing the language isn't any different from editing the text to clarify the characters' heavy dialects, which I've also seen done in several contexts.
I will pay money for a MU client that does that.
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@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Bowlderizing the language isn't any different from editing the text to clarify the characters' heavy dialects, which I've also seen done in several contexts.
I will pay money for a MU client that does that.
I'm going to cop up to being in favour of censoring phonetic accent styling.
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@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
Bowlderizing the language isn't any different from editing the text to clarify the characters' heavy dialects, which I've also seen done in several contexts.
I will pay money for a MU client that does that.
I'm going to cop up to being in favour of censoring phonetic accent styling.
It's not really censoring if we do it to ourself... it's subtitles.
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@Tinuviel said in Separating Art From Artist:
@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:
In terms of what you, @Pandora and @Ghost are decrying as "censorship" in this thread
Did you actually read what I wrote? And the subsequent... entire end of the discussion?
I admit my eyes kinda glazed over when it derailed into a talk about American party registration. (See, the thing to understand is that American parties aren't technically an apparatus of the US government, they're private organizations--really, they're many private organizations, with the state-level parties organized under the national organizations. But citizens can register as a member with the same forms used to register to vote, which allows us to vote in the party elections; most people do.)
I saw the disagreement over what people's secret agendas were, but it does all still start with the general agreement that "censorship is bad" has become "controversial" at some point. The parts of "cancel culture" that get called out as "censorship" aren't, they're just speech being directed at other speech.
ETA: Seriously, it's the rallying whine about KIDS THESE DAYS where people have something mean said about them so they talk about how they've been rendered unpersons on the national goddamn platform they're provided to whine about how censored they are.
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@Ghost said in Separating Art From Artist:
There's a hobby out there on the internet that hand-waves the existence of people roleplaying hardcore sex as-or-with minors and don't fight against it because doing so might result in their own ability to play on those games put in jeopardy. So despite the ABUNDANCE of people with stories about being minors on these hardcore sex games, Why rock the boat? Age is just a number and who are we to interrupt any of this? Be cool, bro.
Dude, you're still on about this?
If you have an issue with the places that allow it, report them to the FBI.
Making the claim that the reason everyone isn't rushing off to do exactly that is behaving that way because they are playing those subjects on those games is part of what got that thread shut down, because it's a major -- and patently absurd -- accusation that you're now touting as fact again.
Do you even begin to understand how and why this accusation is not even the tiniest bit OK?
People were not coming forward en masse to say they were playing on Shang/Akashat/hardcore sex games as teenagers. They were talking about MUs, period, most of which are 18+, and this includes TR, FC, just about every other WoD game, plenty of MUDs, and so on, none of which are classified as hardcore sex games.
18+ game != hardcore sex game by default.
Don't put words in their mouths to try to make your point. That is also beyond uncool.
Oh fucking well.
