The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread

[Autumn]

@lordbelh said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Furthermore, clearly while the character worships the Emperor, she blames the higher ups in the military for the actions of Imperial Japan at present. We can argue how much blame Hirohito deserves (seems a decent amount), but that's really besides the point.

I wanted to go back to this post for a minute, just to think through the more general question of how informed we should expect characters (not just this specific character) to be in the context of their time. The abovementioned hypothetical Russian Communist character in 1938 might very well be ignorant of a lot of horrifying things that have been done at Stalin's behest; probably the great majority of actual Russians at the time were. As far as this brawny Russian lad who wants to go and shoot some fascists in Spain is concerned, Stalin is the warm, benevolent, fatherly figure who protects the Soviet Union from fascists and counterrevolutionaries, not the guy who had the kulaks rounded up and shipped off to Siberia.

Is that problematic? Is it less problematic if the character finds out about the horrible stuff that's happened in the Soviet Union since the revolution, and, revulsed, abandons their loyalty to Stalin? Conversely, is it more problematic if the character finds out about them and refuses to believe it, remaining convinced that Stalin couldn't possibly do those things and it must all be the fault of counterrevolutionaries? Or if he finds out and believes it, but supports Stalin anyway, because sometimes hard measures are necessary to stamp out the cancer of fascism? Does whether or not that character continues to profess adherence to Communist principles make a difference?

I'm not suggesting a particular answer to any of the above questions. But it struck me as interesting grist for discussion in light of the rest of this thread.

[marsmrsmars]

@Autumn While I'm fine with exploring defectors and such, I don't think the rules of the game are made with the character's involvement or knowledge of atrocities in mind. I think the rules are made with the modern knowledge of atrocities in mind, which is why it is banned.

Think about it-- obviously an ex-Nazi character wouldn't be accepted simply because they think that Hitler could do no harm and is actually blameless of any atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. So, why would that be a defense for someone who worships Hirohito?

[Kestrel]

@Autumn said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

<Hypothetical are pro-Stalin characters bad if they don't know he's bad?>
Does whether or not that character continues to profess adherence to Communist principles make a difference?

You can be a Communist and not a Stalinist, you know.

I am. ‍️

[Autumn]

@Kestrel said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@Autumn said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
You can be a Communist and not a Stalinist, you know.

Of course! I was just trying to draw a comparison back to the issue of monarchist characters. I'm just genuinely curious how people feel about some of these hypotheticals, irrespective of whether they would be permitted by the game rules or not.

[GirlCalledBlu]

Hi everyone--

I just wanted to let you all know that we have removed the offensive, racist video linked to that character's profile and mailed them directly about it. To the other notes about the theme and our choices, @Seraphim73 and I are working on a response because there are things here that should be addressed.

If something does come up like this again (the video), please drop us a note on the game or here. We will handle it swiftly. As noted in our policies, this game is not here to give someone the place to play out their hate fantasies.

[Kestrel]

@Autumn

I don't feel totally comfortable answering these questions because I'm not staff.

Personally, I do actually believe it's possible to have a setting that's more faithful to the original history without being yourself a bad, though I also wouldn't attempt it if I was making a game for a wide public audience.

If this was my game? And I knew you personally and I trusted your ability to tell a faithful historical story that didn't make me feel personally grossed at as a descendant of Holocaust survivors? I'd let you play whatever you want, hell, even a Nazi. A friend of mine actually got mixed up in controversy for playing a fascist on another game (funnily enough, not a historically accurate fascist, but a magic fascist in a similar flavour to Savage Skies' Drachenordnung) and I felt very frustrated on their behalf because I knew their intentions were never anything other than to ridicule and criticise this ideology.

Generally speaking, I think it depends on why you do it and how you approach it. I doubt that anyone would argue that it was wrong for Tarantino to have Nazi characters in Inglourious Basterds, or for Christian Waltz to play one. Are you wanting to examine and criticise the way political war machines brainwash us into dangerous ideologies? Do you want to tell a story of a character's escape from that? That sounds cool.

But as far as this game's concerned, that's up to staff. And I think a more important question to ask on that front isn't just what your intentions would be for the character, but if they opened the door for other people to play such characters, what might theirs be? If the answer is 'potentially really bad', my assumption would be no, you can't play this character, no one can, because it's not worth the risk of one person using it to be an ass. Even if you, personally, have only the best intentions.

Publicly accessible games have limits that a smaller cadre of close-knit friends might not.

[Seraphim73]

Howdy. Rome here.

We hadn't listened to the song on the character's page. As @GirlCalledBlu said, it's been removed and the player contacted.

As to the question of Japanese military characters, we've been very careful to ensure that those who have been approved are not aligned with the military forces who are instigating the war crimes in China and Korea (and would be responsible for other ones elsewhere later in history). There is definitely some nuance and question (from what I have read) about how directly involved in all of that Emperor Hirohito was, but I agree that we need to be careful -- probably more careful than we have been in the past.

I will admit that since the game is focused in Europe, we haven't put as much detail into developing South America, Africa, Asia, or Oceana, or our policies in regards to characters from those locations. We will change our policies to be explicit that any Japanese characters must be explicitly opposed to the harsh occupation methods and aggressively expansionist plans espoused by portions of the military. If I knew a common term for those groups that would be understood as well as "Nazis" is for Germany, I would absolutely use it. If any of you have an idea for that term, we're open to suggestions.

The same will be true of Soviet characters, they must be explicitly opposed to the purges and other horrors of Stalin's regime.

Here's the relevant part of our policy:

IC Discrimination
We've specifically designed our setting with the Great Upheaval to remove issues of discrimination against women, people of color, and LGBTQ+ people. We've also bumped off Hitler and replaced the Nazis with the Drachenordnung to shift the focus of fascism in Germany away from Jewish people. So just don't do it. We're great with characters who just plain don't like one another, but this is not the game to live out your dreams of "historical" misogyny, racism, homophobia, or other -isms.

ETA:
Here's the new addition to the Forbidden Characters section of the Chargen Guide:

• War Criminals: Members of authoritarian states who are not explicitly opposed to the excesses and war crimes of members of those states.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Autumn said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@lordbelh said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Furthermore, clearly while the character worships the Emperor, she blames the higher ups in the military for the actions of Imperial Japan at present. We can argue how much blame Hirohito deserves (seems a decent amount), but that's really besides the point.

I wanted to go back to this post for a minute, just to think through the more general question of how informed we should expect characters (not just this specific character) to be in the context of their time. The abovementioned hypothetical Russian Communist character in 1938 might very well be ignorant of a lot of horrifying things that have been done at Stalin's behest; probably the great majority of actual Russians at the time were. As far as this brawny Russian lad who wants to go and shoot some fascists in Spain is concerned, Stalin is the warm, benevolent, fatherly figure who protects the Soviet Union from fascists and counterrevolutionaries, not the guy who had the kulaks rounded up and shipped off to Siberia.

Is that problematic? Is it less problematic if the character finds out about the horrible stuff that's happened in the Soviet Union since the revolution, and, revulsed, abandons their loyalty to Stalin? Conversely, is it more problematic if the character finds out about them and refuses to believe it, remaining convinced that Stalin couldn't possibly do those things and it must all be the fault of counterrevolutionaries? Or if he finds out and believes it, but supports Stalin anyway, because sometimes hard measures are necessary to stamp out the cancer of fascism? Does whether or not that character continues to profess adherence to Communist principles make a difference?

I played on TGG MUSH (and occasionally ST'd!) there when we did a WW2 Stalingrad campaign and I'm struck that this...never came up. Changing times or smaller playerbase, I guess, IDK. And this was actual, historical Russia under Stalin (my character was an electrician who knew the Party sometimes made people Disappear but also knew it was better to keep your head down) rather than a more fantasy equivalent. Really don't envy any staffer trying to parse what players want/need now.

[peasoupling]

@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Think about it-- obviously an ex-Nazi character wouldn't be accepted simply because they think that Hitler could do no harm and is actually blameless of any atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. So, why would that be a defense for someone who worships Hirohito?

Other than eurocentrism, the difference is probably that there is absolutely no doubt where Hitler stood on the war crimes, whereas Hirohito's culpability is the object of a lot of handwringing and "well, but..." to this day.

[Scissors]

I'm going to weigh in on this.

So first of all, just for the record, there is no way an indication of any sort of -ism on the part of @GirlCalledBlu and @Seraphim73. They have created an alternate history specifically to avoid those kinds of ugliness, so please nobody judge the game based on this current discussion.

Regarding Jiayi's "theme song"... well, yes, YIKES. But as far as I recall, that wasn't there when staff approved that character. I'm fairly sure it was added afterwards.

As for an Imperial Japanese military officer PC, I'm less concerned about her IC views towards her Emperor, but more concerned about what the character represents. Yes, she is a member of the Imperial Japanese Army, which is aggressively attacking and invading other Asian countries, killing and raping their people. As one of the PCs who is from one of those invaded countries, I admit I was struggling to try and figure out how to interact with her. Unless she publicly states that she condemns Japanese expansionism and war crimes, I can only display blanket hostility towards that character, or I can choose to avoid her in all my scenes... neither of which is a good solution. So @Rome 's updated policy comes as great relief to me, knowing that Japanese characters must be opposed to the military expansionism. It'll still take some IC wrangling for the characters to coexist peacefully, but that'll be interesting RP rather than OOC pain.

[marsmrsmars]

@peasoupling said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Think about it-- obviously an ex-Nazi character wouldn't be accepted simply because they think that Hitler could do no harm and is actually blameless of any atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. So, why would that be a defense for someone who worships Hirohito?

Other than eurocentrism, the difference is probably that there is absolutely no doubt where Hitler stood on the war crimes, whereas Hirohito's culpability is the object of a lot of handwringing and "well, but..." to this day.

Right. I actually think the defense of Hirohito is actually fairly disgusting, his own uncle is the one who commanded the force (appointed by Hirohito himself) that committed the Rape of Nanking, his involvement in war crimes and the encouragement of such is undeniable. His brother Prince Chichibu, his cousins Prince Takeda and Prince Fushimi, his uncles Prince Kan'in, Prince Asaka, and Prince Higashikuni, all were implicated in the Japanese war crimes that occurred in the Pacific theater.

[mietze]

You can always talk with that PC to work it out too, for how to handle it. Or to at least touch base about why your character might be avoidant.

There are a few opportunities for interpersonal bad blood/conflict because of the mix of nationalities on the ship and the timeline. I know I've reached out to a few people about that and have gotten favorable responses, but I feel more comfortable pulling punches until I know that conflict is welcome.

[Scissors]

@mietze She was just approved last night, so I probably would've at some point. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little concerned that the outcome isn't positive.

After all the scenario here is a bit unique: in the game's timeline, Japan is the only hostile nation aggressively attacking, invading and occupying its neighbors. The bad blood there is not just a matter of clashing ideologies, and not trusting Germans or Italians or Russians; it's someone from a military that has been actively killing your people for years.

@Three-Eyed-Crow I think there is a fundamental difference here from TGG. If the entire group of players involved is playing a Soviet platoon who are part of a single unit by design, I wouldn't have any issue with evil commissars or the diehard Stalinists in our midst. But if I were, say, playing a Jewish agent on an open game with a varied playerbase meant to work together. I'm not going to be very happy if staff approves a bunch of Nazi stormtroopers that suddenly renders my character unplayable.

[68whiskeyman]

It looks like the player of the Jiayi character stole (or borrowed heavily) from two other already existing characters in the game and sort of packaged them together into a D-list abomination. Once you see it, it's pretty striking. I suppose it's not appropriate to dog-pile someone, so I apologize. But if this single character is causing so much trouble, maybe she should go back to the drawing board or something.

[Coin]

@68whiskeyman

It's way too early to do it myself; which two other characters do you mean?

[mietze]

I do think that people need to have a certain level of tolerance with uncomfortable situations/history/even history revision in order to play here. (I'll admit it's one of the things that draws me to it, so I don't think that's a bad thing.)

I admire how the developers have worked pretty diligently to put in some safety bumpers around most everything BUT detailed ones in Asia (but I'm sure after this discussion it's coming). I think there is some risk that some players will conflate real history (especially not really that understood history) and let it inform play, but it seems like that could be handled on a case by case basis. I'm guessing there might be some of that at work here with the Japanese military PC--either they weren't super aware of or assumed that too might have been given some softening by the alternative history view about Hirohito, but I also appreciate that the IRA is not given a lot of press and the crackdown/harsh imprisonment policies in Northern Ireland with the British Government is not in the timeline and presumably has not happened, so we're also not setting up for the Troubles and terrorism either, and given the huge change to women's rights and social status I'm not really certain that war rape is a strategy in-game either on any side. There's not a lot of detailing about how colonialism is playing out now, but I also assume THAT may be gentled as well, in regards to racism and social status.

What I do worry a little about is people leaping to assumptions about the motivations of people playing PCs that would make them uncomfortable if real timelines were kept, and then calling for their heads OOCly. That happens on every game, and if I didn't have a certain amount of tolerance for that sort of thing or tons of "you're not playing it right, listen to me I'm a history major/hobbiest" then I wouldn't be playing here. (Thank goodness there hasn't been much of that if any that I've seen, but I am sure at some point I will!) I love historical themes (but not strict adherence to historical accuracy), I find alternative history really interesting.

I like that there is tension built in, but the intent seems to be very clear to me in looking at the changes made to the culture and the timeline very deliberately make it so that you really aren't going to have people allowed to play gross stuff. I would worry more about it creeping in over time if staff wasn't so obviously invested and responsive.

[marsmrsmars]

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I'm guessing there might be some of that at work here with the Japanese military PC--either they weren't super aware of or assumed that too might have been given some softening by the alternative history view about Hirohito.

I don't think putting an alternate-history lore that says that Nazis didn't do Nazi things makes playing a Nazi any better from a third person perspective.

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

... and given the huge change to women's rights and social status I'm not really certain that war rape is a strategy in-game either on any side.

And I don't think that just because it didn't happen in the lore doesn't make it any better. There's a good reason why the admins decided to completely write out Hitler & Co. but still ban fascist/Nazi characters. Even if it was smoothed over in some alternate-history timeline, playing the would-be perpetrator of war crimes is in very poor taste.

I think the admins are taking a pretty good approach to this. I also think that there's an odd amount of people who are trying to say that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad, but that's just how anonymous forums are, I guess.

[juneko]

Full disclosure: I am a friend of marsmrsmars.

It comes off as weirdly paternalistic whenever you say that people who want to play on this MUSH "need to have a certain level of tolerance with uncomfortable history" in order to play here. First things first: the game does not bill itself as "dark" or "mature," the staff already went through the trouble of removing Adolf Hitler from leadership in Germany and outright banned ex-Nazi characters, so I don't see why there is any hand-wringing about ex-IJA characters.

Second of all: people in this thread are weirdly veering toward outright revisionism whenever they question whether or not Hirohito had any involvement in his country's crimes. His own family participated in them, and he was certainly aware of them. This is elementary school history. Any denial of that shows a complete lack of understanding, and you should not be speaking on a topic that you do not understand.

EDIT: It also comes off as oddly voyeuristic whenever people suggest that they're attracted to exploring these topics for whatever reason. As a roleplayer, I think you should consider that the themes you are interested in exploring are in a real context in this instance, and directly related to terrible suffering that is in living memory of some people alive today. If you WANT to play as a war criminal that participated in the massacre of 25 million Chinese people, I think you need to reflect on why that is.

[mietze]

There's no handwringing going on that I can see. I have no vested interest what happens with Japanese characters or that part of the history.

When I speak of needing to tolerate a certain discomfort to play on a game like this, that is doing an alt-history theme, I'm talking about the discomfort that comes from "dumbing down" if you prefer what happened historically. I appreciate that there are, essentially, changes that make it so that it's likely the Holocaust as we know it will not happen.. (Just as I suspect that the Nanjing Massacre will not happen).

While this makes me happier in the sense of playing the game, it also makes me feel at least some discomfort at removal of this to achieve a world in which we can play somewhat comfortably with modern sensibilities. It's not erasure. I enjoy (while also simultaneously feel kind of weird and uncomfortable) other alternative-history explorations both that erase "bad" elements and those that don't (such as The Man in the High Castle). But there can be an element of feeling discomfort about that that can put people (including myself) on edge very fast, and I think it is probably good to keep that in mind when gauging what we believe to be the other person's intent on the game. (Since I'm sure some people like totally don't think about that stuff at all, which is fine, too.)

I am personally well aware of what happened with Japanese Imperialism (though granted more on the Korean side than Chinese). due to the stories of family members and family members of close personal friends who directly experienced some very horrific things during that time. Which is probably why I personally don't really feel an inclination to app in a Japanese PC of this era.

This is always a risk when you are deciding to play on a history-lite or history-alternate game that is close enough to be in relatable reach, at least for me. I think you have to be able to deal with this internal discomfort in a way that doesn't mean you are going to lash out at other players without stopping to ask questions of staff and even of that player first, though.

And to be very, very clear. The PC in question here very explicitly in their information says that they loathe the imperialist military actions and how non-Japanese people have been treated. They very clearly do NOT want to play a war criminal. As there really hasn't been a ruling on whether or not in this timeline one can be a fan of the cultural ideal of the Emperor and also not support military actions that were directed by him (if they are in this timeline, I agree that it seems a bit of a stretch to say NO involvement, personally.), who knows, maybe it will be that all Japanese PCs must be kind of running from/seeking to get away from their government/that aspect of their culture? Not sure, it remains to be seen.

[Groth]

@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I think the admins are taking a pretty good approach to this. I also think that there's an odd amount of people who are trying to say that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad, but that's just how anonymous forums are, I guess.

I'm not seeing people express the idea that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad as much as I see the expression of the idea that the characters wouldn't be aware that Hirohito was actually that bad.

I'm by no means an expert on Japan during WW2, but the main difference between a character respecting Hitler and Hirohito to me would be that Japan during the period practiced State Shinto which means that most Japanese characters will have spent their entire lives being taught that the Japanese Emperor is Divine and if you want your character to be even a little bit patriotic, distancing yourself from that would be a big step.