Image Attribution & Creative Commons
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@ZombieGenesis said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
While I don't ever see using actors/models/whatever as PBs going away I do think this brings up a good discussion. It's one we had on Blood Falls not that long ago as well. Someone wanted to use an Instagram "influencer/model" as their PB and wanted to know if it was okay. I told them I wasn't comfortable with it and would rather people keep their PBs to celebrities and use only "pubic" publicity photos(no paparazzi shots or candid shots from Instagram or anything).
I think it's a thin line but one I justify by saying that celebrities put themselves in the public spotlight. They release photos to publicize themselves and make themselves known. Fan sites have used these photos since the inception of the internet to "fan cast" various things.
And I thought about this, so as some kind of thought exercise I took it to the extreme:
Is it acceptable to (WITHOUT CONSENT) roleplay as (including using their likeness, expressions, and doing so to the point of effectively acting as a puppeteer for them) a hardcore pornographic actor in a sexual situation that even matches their go-to form of porn without their consent?
Technically, be it porn, tv, or movies those people choose what content they want tied to their face and likeness applied to, and even if it's stuff they logically might choose, they aren't being given the opportunity to provide consent.
Fan casting is just "I want Idris Elba to play Bond".
So, my own personal feelings on PBs (despite my opinions related to writing/ceeativity) is that in a TS sense you're basically using another human being's likeness as a sock puppet or sexual object without their consent.
ETA: Then I suppose the next logical thought exercise is to ask yourself: "If you were a famous person, what would your reaction be if you came across a website of someone using pictures of you to roleplay as you (including cybersex)? What if that person is your spouse, sister, or dad?"
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Most places take things down if someone contacts them or objects. It happened on BITN at one point, when someone used pics of a cosplayer. TR did so re: someone whose pics were nabbed off of facebook.
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I feel weird seeing Instagram 'influencers' used because most of them are trying to reach celebrity status.
I think it's once it's sort of 'household name' point that I'm more cool with it. Wanna use a Jonas Bro or ScarJo? Go for it. Wanna use some chick on Instagram who has one or two sponorship deals? Ehhhhh.
Cosplayers I am even LESS COOL with. Like. Not cool at all. But that might be because I just had a friend come back from PAX South having had so many people tug at her hair (INCLUDING A SECURITY GUARD) that she didn't even want to leave her room on Sunday. And this is a white girl who just happens to have a natural silver streak in her black hair. She wasn't even fully cosplaying, just wearing fun outfits.
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@Ghost I'm not saying I disagree with you(though I'm also not entirely focused solely on the TS aspect of PBs) but while we're in the realm of thought exercise, with a pornographic actor, is it much different than using their photo or video or whatever as masturbation material? You still don't have their permission to use that material for that purpose. Unless you assume that there is a tacit agreement that this material is made FOR that purpose(personal sexual gratification) then might not using them as a PB to fulfill that same purpose be okay?
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(also why are we assuming every single person makes every single character for the purposes of TS. Says more about the person assuming that than anyone else tbh)
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@ZombieGenesis Not to split hairs, but I'm pretty sure everyone in every porn ever did so being well aware that people were gonna fap to it.
But they chose to have their likeness used in those particular films, which is why it's so wrong to post naked pictures or sex videos of people online without consent even if you saw then naked on screen in that one movie. The films they signed onto get traded, distributed, rights sold, but just because they were in one movie doesnt make it legal/right to film them (and distribute content of) without their consent. The consent isnt transitive
I just do not personally believe that fame or level of public profile isn't a good boundary for using someone's likeness in a sexual situation without their consent.
Of course, I say this knowing that these games are all about the story, but we all know how common TS, the hunt for, and relationship RP is in this particular hobby so it's hard not to consider it somewhat one in the same. Not every player does TS, and not every PB is selected with TS in mind, but its prevalent and even if you never intended to TS but find yourself doing so is it okay to do so using that person's likeness without their consent?
But even without TS, consent is still a factor.
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
Well, I think we're talking about very different things when it comes to actually invading someone's privacy and releasing personal information(photos or whatever) and saying "I'm using Ben Affleck for my version of Batman" while someone else says, "Okay, but I'm using Gina Carano for my interpretation of Wonder Woman." And then posting some photos, many often just links to other sites hosting the photos, for reference.
I also think, for the purposes of TS since that seems to be the main crux of your argument, that we're greatly inflating what a "sexual situation" is since most RP takes place in that grand palace that is our imagination where that character could like like anything we want regardless of who the other player has listed as their PB.
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It's no wronger than writing smutty fanfic about characters on a TV show.
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@Ghost said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
Not every player does TS, and not every PB is selected with TS in mind, but its prevalent and even if you never intended to TS but find yourself doing so is it okay to do so using that person's likeness without their consent?
@ZombieGenesis said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
since most RP takes place in that grand palace that is our imagination where that character could like like anything we want regardless of who the other player has listed as their PB.
The first char I ever RP'd with @Ghost on (and consequently TS'd with :P), the PB never factored into wanting our chars to get together. I thought the chars were compatible. I liked his RP. Voila.
If PB factored in, it never would've happened. I don't find Joel Kinnaman attractive at all.
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@ZombieGenesis said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
since most RP takes place in that grand palace that is our imagination where that character could like like anything we want regardless of who the other player has listed as their PB.
Respectfully, saying that the other player could be envisioning something other than your preferred PB in their mind doesn't change the fact that at least one person is choosing to use another person's likeness on a webpage or in their writing without their consent.
Okay...how about this.
There are a few public figures in the MU community; some of which have been on tv, in film, etc. YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO PAGE THEM AND ASK FOR THEIR CONSENT.
Would you choose to use their likeness as a PB without asking them first?
If the answer is no, TS or no TS, then logically the answer should equally be 'no' for Robert Downey Jr
@Auspice said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
If PB factored in, it never would've happened. I don't find Joel Kinnaman attractive at all.
I always tried to maintain that my PBs were SIMILAR to what the character looked like, but not 100%, but yea PB wasn't ever really a deciding factor for me, either.
I dunno. I've said all I need to about this topic. I feel the way I feel, this is me, and I'm just sharing my thoughts on the matter. Once I thought these things, I just don't feel like i could use PBs again.
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@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
In most states, you can be sued for using someone else's name, likeness, or other personal attributes without permission for an exploitative purpose. Usually, people run into trouble in this area when they use someone's name or photograph in a commercial setting, such as in advertising or other promotional activities. But, some states also prohibit use of another person's identity for the user's own personal benefit, whether or not the purpose is strictly commercial. There are two distinct legal claims that potentially apply to these kinds of unauthorized uses: (1) invasion of privacy through misappropriation of name or likeness ("misappropriation"); and (2) violation of the right of publicity. (The "right of publicity" is the right of a person to control and make money from the commercial use of his or her identity.)
Unless I see evidence to the contrary, a claim for the unauthorized use of one's likeness for a character would probably be barred under the doctrine of absque injuria.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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I use PBs even though I would feel iffy about it. Generally only people who regularly get their picture taken and would not be shocked to see it floating around on the internet - models, actors, etc. I wouldn't ever just see someone whose face I liked and lift it off their personal social media, or something.
I'm playing a character using a model as a PB, and he recently died. Young, unexpected, tragic. I learned it after a scene and did some quick math and realized he probably died as I was roleplaying a character using his likeness.
It's weird. I felt weird, and bad. I have no point here, because I'm not sure what the correct ethical stance is on all this. I just wanted to share this story and how weirdbad it made me feel. RIP Godfrey Gao.
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@Ganymede said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
In most states, you can be sued for using someone else's name, likeness, or other personal attributes without permission for an exploitative purpose. Usually, people run into trouble in this area when they use someone's name or photograph in a commercial setting, such as in advertising or other promotional activities. But, some states also prohibit use of another person's identity for the user's own personal benefit, whether or not the purpose is strictly commercial. There are two distinct legal claims that potentially apply to these kinds of unauthorized uses: (1) invasion of privacy through misappropriation of name or likeness ("misappropriation"); and (2) violation of the right of publicity. (The "right of publicity" is the right of a person to control and make money from the commercial use of his or her identity.)
Unless I see evidence to the contrary, a claim for the unauthorized use of one's likeness for a character would probably be barred under the doctrine of absque injuria.
I get that, however, I'm wondering how someone like Emily Blunt would feel if her likeness was used to portray a character that was a rabid serial killer and posted those logs with her image attached. I do understand that there is no real 'damage' but with their 'reputation' might qualify?
Pay no attention to me. I'm old, jaded and generally unfriendly. I am prone to fits of stupidity, but I am still unique, just like everyone else. ~~ Current President of the Anti-Faraday fan club.
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@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
However, it sounds like someone is going through the trouble to make it known.
Indeed. I have been CCed on several emails to talent agencies, such as the following:
To whom it may concern,
There is an use of the image of one of your talent pool on the website (https://savageskies.aresmush.com/char/<CHAR> ) which may paint them in a less than favorable manner. As per the the digital media rights, may be seen as a violation of their copyright, as outlined in (http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/using-name-or-likeness-another)
There are may be other of your talents located on this website or on other similar sites which you can find a reference for here. (https://arescentral.aresmush.com/games) If you have any questions, please direct them to the people whom created the game this is ran on as well as the people who are listed as Members of the staff.
It all seems rather petty to me to single out one specific game, since this is fairly common practice across RP/blog/fanfic/tumblr sites across the internet, but that's their prerogative.
I just wish they'd stop CCing me on it, since I have nothing to do with the content of individual games. (Any more than Wordpress has control of self-hosted blogs using their software.)
To @Auspice's point about attribution - that's up to the page using the image. Ares' file upload system is basically the same as wordpress or any wiki software.
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@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Ganymede said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
In most states, you can be sued for using someone else's name, likeness, or other personal attributes without permission for an exploitative purpose. Usually, people run into trouble in this area when they use someone's name or photograph in a commercial setting, such as in advertising or other promotional activities. But, some states also prohibit use of another person's identity for the user's own personal benefit, whether or not the purpose is strictly commercial. There are two distinct legal claims that potentially apply to these kinds of unauthorized uses: (1) invasion of privacy through misappropriation of name or likeness ("misappropriation"); and (2) violation of the right of publicity. (The "right of publicity" is the right of a person to control and make money from the commercial use of his or her identity.)
Unless I see evidence to the contrary, a claim for the unauthorized use of one's likeness for a character would probably be barred under the doctrine of absque injuria.
I get that, however, I'm wondering how someone like Emily Blunt would feel if her likeness was used to portray a character that was a rabid serial killer and posted those logs with her image attached. I do understand that there is no real 'damage' but with their 'reputation' might qualify?
Would she portray a rabid serial killer in a film?
I think that may be why I'm OK with actors as PBs more than musicians or models or... Because they DO portray all sorts of people, types, etc., so it's not just 'them' being slotted into different roles.
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@faraday said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
It all seems rather petty to me to single out one specific game, since this is fairly common practice across RP/blog/fanfic/tumblr sites across the internet, but that's their prerogative.
I just wish they'd stop CCing me on it, since I have nothing to do with the content of individual games. (Any more than Wordpress has control of self-hosted blogs using their software.)
I have discovered in my many many years of MUing that you can never know what will trigger people. It is a bit silly, yes, but I don't know what happened behind the curtain. I logged in, thought about creating a PC, was met with some rather 'brisk' channel banter, then logged off. No harm no foul.
@Auspice said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Ganymede said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
@Seamus said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
In most states, you can be sued for using someone else's name, likeness, or other personal attributes without permission for an exploitative purpose. Usually, people run into trouble in this area when they use someone's name or photograph in a commercial setting, such as in advertising or other promotional activities. But, some states also prohibit use of another person's identity for the user's own personal benefit, whether or not the purpose is strictly commercial. There are two distinct legal claims that potentially apply to these kinds of unauthorized uses: (1) invasion of privacy through misappropriation of name or likeness ("misappropriation"); and (2) violation of the right of publicity. (The "right of publicity" is the right of a person to control and make money from the commercial use of his or her identity.)
Unless I see evidence to the contrary, a claim for the unauthorized use of one's likeness for a character would probably be barred under the doctrine of absque injuria.
I get that, however, I'm wondering how someone like Emily Blunt would feel if her likeness was used to portray a character that was a rabid serial killer and posted those logs with her image attached. I do understand that there is no real 'damage' but with their 'reputation' might qualify?
Would she portray a rabid serial killer in a film?
I think that may be why I'm OK with actors as PBs more than musicians or models or... Because they DO portray all sorts of people, types, etc., so it's not just 'them' being slotted into different roles.
I don't know if she would, tbh. But then again, I don't know her career plans. I selected her because she has a rather 'disney friendly' image in some of her movies.
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Here's the thing....
(and I doubt I'm alone in this)
Even pre-PBs, I didn't read descs.
So many people wrote meandering, confusing descs that left me
The best I could glean would be, for example: 'ok, female and.......... red? hair?'
So I like PBs. I like PBs because they're a better descriptor of what your character looks like than your words are. Most of you can't write what a person looks like for shit with your 'lithe lean voluptuous curves' and 'limpid verdant pools'
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@ghost You equated my comment about pornographic material being made with the tacit agreement that it'll be used for personal sexual gratification with hacking into someone's phone and posting their private material openly and publically and I'm the one trying to move the goalposts? Okay.
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@Auspice said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
Here's the thing....
(and I doubt I'm alone in this)
Even pre-PBs, I didn't read descs.
So many people wrote meandering, confusing descs that left me
The best I could glean would be, for example: 'ok, female and.......... red? hair?'
So I like PBs. I like PBs because they're a better descriptor of what your character looks like than your words are. Most of you can't write what a person looks like for shit with your 'lithe lean voluptuous curves' and 'limpid verdant pools'
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@Auspice said in Image Attribution & Creative Commons:
Even pre-PBs, I didn't read descs.
This +1000. There was very little I hated more than typing 'l (person)' and being greeted with an 8,000 character buffer breaker.
This is why I like BeipMU. On Blood Falls and H&V I encourage players to link to an image in their @descs as it brings up that image in the client itself if people are A) using BeipMU and B) have that feature turned on. Then the actual text desc is used to customize the image with character-specific things.
