Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?

[Runescryer]

@Cheesegrater Why do you think I was talking about Molly?

I was talking about Riviera. Dude was completely psychotic and saw others as lesser creatures to be done with as he wills. He enjoys torturing and cutting up people with his implanted lasers. Now, could that have been the speedball mix? Possibly. But, there is precedence for someone falling down the 'Metal Is Better Than Meat' hole.

Now, is it a mechanic to limit getting loaded up with Cyber? Absolutely. Is the concept in the game more devastating than in the literary genre? Possibly. But, without the possibility of cyberpsychosis, everyone would be playing a FullBorg. Because if there's zero downside to hacking off body part and replacing them with machines, why not go all the way? And if everyone's doing that, you don't need a c-psycho squad; every cop and corp security would be armed like c-psycho; and that would make the game even more lethal at starting levels than it already is.

[Wizz]

@faraday said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

And part of it stems from a world-building desire not to have terminators running around. It wasn't in line with the vision of the setting, even though it could have been a natural consequence of the technology. That may or may not fit in any other cyberpunk setting depending on what you were going for.

That's the only point I was trying to make, was that a cyborg with all the listed augmentations would only be a terminator because the augmentations themselves are overpowered. They're going for a certain aesthetic and whether or not it makes sense depends entirely on the in-universe logic, not universal logic.

@Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

Now, is it a mechanic to limit getting loaded up with Cyber? Absolutely. Is the concept in the game more devastating than in the literary genre? Possibly. But, without the possibility of cyberpsychosis, everyone would be playing a FullBorg.

There are other setting limitations that you could impose that would make sense and not be quite so outdated or inherently kinda gross.

Cybernetics could be costly, legally restricted, unreliable (as in, early development or maintenance is difficult/rare), or all of the above.

ETA: accidental doublepost, which I am allergic to

[Wizz]

This post is deleted!

[Runescryer]

@Wizz Cybernetics are already inherently expensive, A starting character can't afford very much in Cyberpunk, as opposed to Shadowrun.

And if you're worried about 'inherently gross', then, no offense, but Cyberpunk might not be the genre for you. We're talking about a literary genre where one of the major works, Hardwired, features a character who has an implanted Roto-Rooter in her throat with a targeting system. And she conducts an assassination of an 80+ year old man who had his consciousness transfered into the body of a 16 year old girl, by french kissing the target and unleashing the weapon, which tore all the way down 'her' throat, then buzzed around and pureed the major organs. That's not exactly 'light' subject matter.

[faraday]

@Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

Cybernetics are already inherently expensive, A starting character can't afford very much in Cyberpunk, as opposed to Shadowrun.

Yeah in Shadowrun cyber is also expensive and/or restricted, depending on the gear. The main difference is that SR allows you to start out with a bunch of it (GM permitting), on the assumption that you have some kind of backstory to match - ex-corp/military samurai or the like.

[Wizz]

@Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

And if you're worried about 'inherently gross', then, no offense, but Cyberpunk might not be the genre for you.

I happen to enjoy cyberpunk as a genre quite a lot, thanks. But gore is not what I mean by "gross." The author clearly understands why that is upsetting. Hyperviolence is supposed to be upsetting, it's dehumanizing.

The authors behind the concept of cyberpsychosis don't understand why the use of extensive prosthetics leading to mental illness is a gross concept. It's a perspective we've outgrown culturally. Prosthetics are not dehumanizing, they're empowering.

[Ominous]

@Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

@Wizz Cybernetics are already inherently expensive, A starting character can't afford very much in Cyberpunk, as opposed to Shadowrun.

And if you're worried about 'inherently gross', then, no offense, but Cyberpunk might not be the genre for you. We're talking about a literary genre where one of the major works, Hardwired, features a character who has an implanted Roto-Rooter in her throat with a targeting system. And she conducts an assassination of an 80+ year old man who had his consciousness transfered into the body of a 16 year old girl, by french kissing the target and unleashing the weapon, which tore all the way down 'her' throat, then buzzed around and pureed the major organs. That's not exactly 'light' subject matter.

Dear Author of Hardwired,

[Kestrel]

At the moment, my time is very limited and I would be unlikely to roll into another MU*. That said if I had more time and fewer existing games to hold my interest, a cyberpunk MU* would be at the very top of the list of places I'd want to check out.

Double bonus points if it has overt anticapitalist themes, which I believe any good cyberpunk setting should.

[faraday]

@Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

The authors behind the concept of cyberpsychosis don't understand why the use of extensive prosthetics leading to mental illness is a gross concept. It's a perspective we've outgrown culturally. Prosthetics are not dehumanizing, they're empowering.

I get where you're coming from. I agree that would be a gross concept.

I never really got that from the CP fiction/games though, personally. The theme was never about prosthetics. These characters (generally) aren't getting cyberlimbs because they lost their legs in an accident, or cybereyes because they were blinded. They're able-bodied people going to a cyberdoc and saying: "Please chop my arm off and replace it with an augmented version so I can lift cars and have wolverine claws and be a more effective killing machine". That, to me, does not cry "empowerment". YMMV obviously.

ETA, back on topic: I like the cyberpunk genre in general, but I'm not convinced it makes for a good MUSH setting. So no, I probably wouldn't play on one.

[Wizz]

@faraday

I mean, personally my mileage there goes a lot farther, because I would absolutely replace my weak-ass human limbs with cyberlimbs so I could juggle dumpsters or whatever. Are you kidding? Being a cyborg would be cool as hell.

BUT, more seriously, my biggest issue is that in that system, there IS no distinction between like, someone in a horrible accident who needed to replace all their limbs/organs and someone who elected to. In fact, reason doesn't enter into it at all, it doesn't matter if you're trying to become the perfect killer, or a supercop, or adapt to new environments, or explore identity, or you just wish to be able to return to something like normalcy, just the act of getting cybered up makes you crazy. That is weird, nonsensical and upsetting to me.

[Ganymede]

@Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

The authors behind the concept of cyberpsychosis don't understand why the use of extensive prosthetics leading to mental illness is a gross concept. It's a perspective we've outgrown culturally. Prosthetics are not dehumanizing, they're empowering.

I concur with you for the reasons and with the limitations stated by Faraday.

I don’t think cyberpsychosis is a direct result of merely having prosthetics; I think it is more like the Hubris mechanic of oWoD mage or the Taint system of Aberrant. That is: as you become more and more super-human you lose the ability to empathize with and be sensitive to humanity, thereby becoming “psychotic” relative to humanity’s sensibilities.

[faraday]

@Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

BUT, more seriously, my biggest issue is that in that system, there's no distinction between like, someone in a horrible accident who needed to replace all their limbs/organs and someone who elected to. In fact, reason doesn't enter into it at all, it doesn't matter if you're trying to become the perfect killer, or a supercop, or adapt to new environments, or explore identity, or you just wish to be able to return to something like normalcy, just the act of getting cybered up makes you crazy. That is weird, nonsensical and upsetting to me.

I understand. In Shadowrun, at least, you do not have any ill effects until you get ridiculously cybered. You could replace all your limbs and a bunch of organs and still have essence to spare. So it's really not "just the act of getting cybered up makes you crazy." The mechanic is just a cap against chromed-to-the-gills super-soldiers running wild in a world where megacorps absolutely would want that and have essentially unlimited means to get it (meaning laws, money, etc. are no object).

[mietze]

Yeah honestly I always assumed that it was more about altered state of consciousness and shifts in how your system functions. Like you don't put on a limb, its wired into you and becomes part of your consciousness. You can literally plug your brain into your computer and have a proxy sensory experience, not because visual/sound things are tricking your senses but because there is a direct electronic and chemical interface with them in the brain.

When just getting pregnant and/or hitting a certain level of environmental toxin level or reacting to implants of a much cruder nature can alter people's brains/behaviors/ect, through no fault of their own, I guess it doesnt really seem to far fetched to me that when you replace organic systems wholesale, that can lead to some pretty life altering effects.

I have a close friend who underwent an organ transplant. Even that has had some really significant effects on her life beyond the "happy story" of it. It's still a shock to the body system even aside to the anti-rejection drugs. Unlike say, a titanium hip. Most of the cybernetic implants that I remember do not function simply like just a joint replacement. They are integrated into several body systems. I'm glad there's handwavium about rejection! But I do not see why someone has to be gross for saying that if you integrate many foreign things into your body that are replacing and augmenting neural stuff and body systems then you will reach a capacity where it probably will affect your well being.

[Wizz]

@mietze said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

When just getting pregnant and/or hitting a certain level of environmental toxin level or reacting to implants of a much cruder nature can alter people's brains/behaviors/ect, through no fault of their own, I guess it doesnt really seem to far fetched to me that when you replace organic systems wholesale, that can lead to some pretty life altering effects.

Life altering effects, sure? But why insanity?

[Auspice]

In Altered Carbon, adapting to a new sleeve is... hell. The Envoys (and presumably others) have special tactics and training to force it, but even then it's not easy. The consciousness struggles with it.

IRL, people who lose limbs still feel them. There's the whole 'phantom limb' thing for a reason.

There are a lot of reasons that getting cybernetics (esp. full limb and similar) would have a negative impact on the psyche. And you have to consider the audience it was written to. Going into the nuances, providing special roll charts/tables for 'to what extent' it impacts someone is not the roleplay experience most people are looking for. They just want to know 'x + y = z' and 'hey this is gonna fuck your shit up' gives a spectrum to RP within, rather than a) saying it has zero effect (which is disregarding real issues in its own cruel way) or b) saying 'you must RP this in this way and this way only' (which disregards the spectrum in which someone might embrace or not or respond or not).

[mietze]

@Wizz overload? When your brain cannot handle things anymore, and you snap? When the human body has not yet had time to really adapt to these body/mind altering new experiences? It happens to people now with far less invasive and complicated things.

Probably also because of the pervasive themes in this type of SciFi is the exploration/discomfort over how much alteration one needs to undergo before that person starts to lose their grasp on empathy/humanity.

One could argue that WoD also forces that as well through trauma since even mortal PCs can be removed from play as PCs due to breakdown/insanity in some way.

Not sure why cyberpunk is perceived as uniquely gross when it has people literally rewiring their bodies, ripping out systems to install new ones (including from petri dishes and organ harvesters, in addition to the foreign substance only ones). I would find it mildly disrespectful to say "sure, jam physical objects into the brain and replace nerves with wires, inject yourself full of nanobots and other chemicals, what are you some kind of loser, totally none of those things will ever affect your experience of the word and wouldn't alter your mental health at all." When you have people actively suffering/who have experienced frightening things RL from postpartum depression/psychosis, and anti-rejection drugs neuraltoxcity, ect, but ok.

[peasoupling]

I've seen people make a distinction between items that merely replace or mimic ordinary human function and stuff that specifically augments it or replaces it with something unusual, which seems marginally less ableist except for having to define a normal baseline, I guess?

[mietze]

It has been a very long time but iirc there's also differing amounts of contribution towards that threshold too, depending on the type of implant/replacement as well. Seems like that should be a good way for game runners to balance what they'd like.

Though personally, ripping your brain out of your body and going full replacement probably is going to impact you no matter what the reason is, because of the scope. Limb replacement, eh. Could eliminate base cost and just factor in type of extras. Being able to have a functional hand with a handy computer port should "cost" less than one with a monofilament whip and poison gas canister activated by your mind. Though I do seem to recall that was kind of how it worked, I may be conflating a few systems.

[Dillinger]

I wouldn't be terribly interested in a Shadowrun game but a cyberpunk game otherwise I would be. I'm more interested in post-cyberpunk, transhumanism and posthumanism with tinges of hard sci-fi. Throw psionics, aliens or fantasy elements in and I begin to lose interest.

Altered Carbon, The Matrix, The Culture series and Eclipse Phase (theme - not necessarily the system) and I'm in.

Edit: I just thought of the exception. CthulhuTech. If you add in Lovecraftian horror elements I am extra interested.

[Runescryer]

@Wizz I can agree with that. However, you're crossing the line from 'cyberpunk' to 'transhumanism', IMO. And there is a difference.

Cyberpunk focuses on technology as dehumanizing, whether that be cybernetic implants, communications, lifestyle, whatever. Technology is neutral, but humans choose to use it in damaging ways, and there's an undercurrent of personal and societal damage due to technology.

Transhumanism focuses on technology as a tool to reach beyond the limits of our physical forms. Technology is abused in bad ways sometimes, but is ultimately a Good Thing. The scale of negative uses and effects of technology are limited and outweighed by the overall benefits of Technology to society.

Ultimately, the difference is how the overall society is presented as interacting with Technology.

With Cyberpunk, tech is a necessary evil, you need it in order to compete or even just survive. Society is ruined because of disparities in economics and access to technology, and the question is: what are you willing to do to others and yourself to survive.

With Transhumanism, tech is a natural part of society. There may be inequality and other darker aspects of society, but the the outlook is far more positive, and society on a whole has more equality than a Cyberpunk setting; even the dystopia of Altered Carbon is far better and more preferable to live in than the dystopia of Gibson's Sprawl. Here, the question is: how can technology help you fulfill your best potential?

And that's reflected in the difference in TableTop games. Cyberpunk games have Essence/Humanity loss in dealing with cybernetics. Transhuman games like Eclipse Phase don't. Because they're approaching the concept from two different viewpoints.