Diversity Representation in MU*ing
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Arkandel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I've always been hesitant since I tend to play flawed characters, and I wouldn't care for anyone taking my takes the wrong way.
Fun fact: I actually pretty much never play black characters with gang type backgrounds, or anything like that. Not because I don't want to, because I think it's worth exploring, but because I just feel weird about it due to not being from that kind of background myself.
It's like this: If I play a white dude with ties to gangs then I don't care what anyone thinks of it, as I'm a white dude. If I played a black dude then I'd care.
It's not that anyone would think it's wrong let alone say anything about it, mind you. It's most likely all in my head. But it's been enough.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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Actually, a question for our black and any middle eastern players we have: have any of you read the Peter Grant books by Ben Aaronovitch?
Many of his characters are non-white and the protagonist is black. Another main character is Muslim. The author himself is a white man, but he reaches out to his readers often to ask questions, make sure he's getting things right, etc.
And I feel like a lot of it is well-portrayed. But that's just coming from a white girl who grew up in a diverse city. My friends may have come from all over the world, but my experience was still white.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice If I'm writing a book, I can get people to help make sure I haven't screwed up. By the time anyone can check that in RP, it's too late.
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@Arkandel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
It's like this: If I play a white dude with ties to gangs then I don't care what anyone thinks of it, as I'm a white dude. If I played a black dude then I'd care.
It's not that anyone would think it's wrong let alone say anything about it, mind you. It's most likely all in my head. But it's been enough.
I definitely get that. For me I've never quite been able to resolve if I can do it in a way that would truly add something to the narrative I'm playing in. Like, there are things I want to explore, but also I think "okay but would this add anything". There's so many narratives like that out there already, so I've taken to just exploring new and unique things, or things more close to my own experience when I'm specifically exploring possible racial stuff.
I'm honestly very inspired by movies like "Attack the Block" (the first time I ever saw John Boyega in anything and why I really wanted him to be a Jedi), because it entirely subverts the idea of who is and isn't allowed to be a hero in a film, and really subverts your expectations in general. But I can't really bring myself to actually do anything like that, it just feels so tricky and a very fine line on the risk to reward spectrum.
@Auspice I haven't, though I do think your concerns are warranted. I've met quite a few white writers who asked for my opinions on what they were writing, but what they were writing was such a tapestry of bad shit I could barely unravel it, or they got defensive about certain things. I could take a read of one of these Peter Grant books some time if I find the premise interesting though.
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@Auspice said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Many of his characters are non-white and the protagonist is black. Another main character is Muslim. The author himself is a white man, but he reaches out to his readers often to ask questions, make sure he's getting things right, etc.
Something to perhaps consider here is weaponized complaints.
In other words you might play a black woman who's also an addict perfectly well, having done your research, spoken to people... all of that.
Then one day that gets thrown in your face on MSB because you're a racist.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Auspice I haven't, though I do think your concerns are warranted. I've met quite a few white writers who asked for my opinions on what they were writing, but what they were writing was such a tapestry of bad shit I could barely unravel it, or they got defensive about certain things. I could take a read of one of these Peter Grant books some time if I find the premise interesting though.
I love the books (tho not in the 'I feel like I'm a good person for liking books with a diverse cast' way but because I like the world and the stories). I think everyone should read them. But I don't feel I can accurately say 'they are a good representation of POC in writing' because I'm white. I think they are, but I can't say it for certain. It's why I'd like to get the thoughts from those who would be able to more accurately speak to that.
ETA: and part of why I'd like it if they are is because it's an urban supernatural series (in a similar vein to the Dresden Files) with a lot of non-white characters (the primary protagonist is a black man!) and that is really rare. Most books, shows, etc. that deal in magic, fantasy creatures, etc etc. in a modern setting are predominantly white. It'd be great to have a series I can point people to (and I DO point people to it because I love the stories) that isn't.
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I was recently poking at the Urban Shadows RPG for ProjectThing, and I am reminded of the introduction where they say they trust us to try, and that is in my mind a lot when I start considering my characters. I've found my PB file (I start with a picture, alright?) diversifying, becoming older, less white.
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I've been working on some huge official tabletop projects that I'm not allowed to talk about yet for a few companies (NDAs), but multiple of them involve basically structuring a very POC centric setting and writing things in a way that makes them easier for people who aren't POCs to digest. Like, a part of it is teaching people things to be mindful of or to consider, and presenting a POC-centric setting in a way that fully explains the setting to people who didn't grow up in them, and how people who live there think about them rather than how outsiders do.
There's quite a few ways to approach teaching people how to possibly play that kind of character! Explaining the environment that people grew up in is a great way to do that, in my opinion. It's giving people an organic way to get into the mindset of that character. This is why I recommended all of those movies and shows and such. It's just kind of a natural way to possibly digest these things without overwhelming yourself in super serious research.
There's a particular book I worked on that I really want to talk to people about when it comes out, as I think it'll be very useful to anyone thinking about playing an American POC.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I've been working on some huge official tabletop projects that I'm not allowed to talk about yet for a few companies (NDAs), but multiple of them involve basically structuring a very POC centric setting and writing things in a way that makes them easier for people who aren't POCs to digest. Like, a part of it is teaching people things to be mindful of or to consider, and presenting a POC-centric setting in a way that fully explains the setting to people who didn't grow up in them, and how people who live there think about them rather than how outsiders do.
Wouldn't all the techniques involved in writing a good POC-centric setting also apply to writing any other fantasy or science fiction setting?
After all a well-written setting should portray unique and interesting cultures in a way that teaches the reader how to portray it and tell their stories in it. This is something I think a lot of setting books do a rather poor job of, often they're written as little more then an atlas giving geographic and demographic information while giving you almost no advice on how to properly portray someone who is from there.
@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
There's a writing exercise I recommend if you're in doubt (like many others here, I am a writer). Write your story with every character as a white male (or whatever your default is). Then roll dice for gender, ethnicity and sexuality. If doing so fundamentally changed your story, then you're not writing people but tropes. Obviously works best in a setting with at least some equity.
I think there's a worthwhile caveat here that there's a lot of story-lines where the gender and ethnicity of the characters are crucial to the plot. Take Game of Thrones for instance, if you switched the genders of Cersei Lannister and Robert Baratheon then their children couldn't be Jaime's kids anymore and that entire story is gone.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
There's a writing exercise I recommend if you're in doubt (like many others here, I am a writer). Write your story with every character as a white male (or whatever your default is). Then roll dice for gender, ethnicity and sexuality. If doing so fundamentally changed your story, then you're not writing people but tropes. Obviously works best in a setting with at least some equity.
I think there's a worthwhile caveat here that there's a lot of story-lines where the gender and ethnicity of the characters are crucial to the plot. Take Game of Thrones for instance, if you switched the genders of Cersei Lannister and Robert Baratheon then their children couldn't be Jaime's kids anymore and that entire story is gone.
No writing exercise covers all scenarios. This one wouldn't work very well on any quasi-medieval footing anyhow, seeing as that the gender roles in GoT are already highly skewered, and swapping it all up would break the story. The race aspect might still apply though -- is there any reason the Baratheons could not be black?
http://keys.aresmush.com -- Come to Chincoteague, we have ponies.
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@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
-- is there any reason the Baratheons could not be black?
John Arryn says 'The Seed is Strong' and indeed, all of his bastard heirs have black
hairskin. Unlike his white blonde kids.(I am being silly, I think you could totally mix up the racial diversity of the sshow and it could be great, minor details change but nothing major.)
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@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
The race aspect might still apply though -- is there any reason the Baratheons could not be black?
Offhand, the only ethnicity I remember mattering in Game of Thrones are the Targayens because unlike everyone else they're inbreeding immigrants though even then they only have to be different so in theory you should be able to mix them all up and it should still all make sense.
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@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Wouldn't all the techniques involved in writing a good POC-centric setting also apply to writing any other fantasy or science fiction setting?
After all a well-written setting should portray unique and interesting cultures in a way that teaches the reader how to portray it and tell their stories in it. This is something I think a lot of setting books do a rather poor job of, often they're written as little more then an atlas giving geographic and demographic information while giving you almost no advice on how to properly portray someone who is from there.
I certainly don't disagree. To be perfectly honest, I find a good chunk of the way fantasy races have been historically written to be a bit shallow. Much of how I write any cultures or races in my tabletop work is more or less to address the lack of depth that I've seen in fantasy race writing in the past. I never really considered the way I did the POC type stuff to be related, but you're right in that it's ultimately the same thing.
I do genuinely find a lot of settings I read to be very dry and lacking in actually informing about the people who live there. A lot of things just exist because they're supposed to exist and that is the trope or established setting thing. So yeah, I fully agree with you, I think this is how any race, fantasy or otherwise, should be done.
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@HelloProject
That's because most fantasy races are treated like an exotic other to play, rather than an actually developed culture to explore. A few games do explore other races/species, though, like Burning Wheel's racial mechanics with Elves having Grief, Dark Elves having Spite, Dwarves having Greed, Orcs having Hate, and Humans having Faith. Pugmire and Monarchies of Mau also delve heavily into the differences of the two species/cultures in ways I just love.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
After all a well-written setting should portray unique and interesting cultures in a way that teaches the reader how to portray it and tell their stories in it. This is something I think a lot of setting books do a rather poor job of, often they're written as little more then an atlas giving geographic and demographic information while giving you almost no advice on how to properly portray someone who is from there.
So that players can promptly ignore everything you've written, if they bother to read it at all, in favor of their own lore?
looks at every DnD MU ever
ETA: And if you have the audacity to correct a wildly inaccurate portrayal you're wrongfunning them and of course they're special they have XYZ reason to be different and WHAT DO YOU MEAN "WHY AM I NOT PLAYING A Z INSTEAD?" THIS IS MY CHOICE!
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@Ominous said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject
. A few games do explore other races/species, though, like Burning Wheel's racial mechanics with Elves having Grief, Dark Elves having Spite, Dwarves having Greed, Orcs having Hate, and Humans having Faith.
uh i have no idea what mechanic this is but it SOUNDS racist af, just from those terms. Never thought I'd be an elf apologist but EVERYONE SUCKS BUT HUMANS is yikes.
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All of the non-human species have better stats and abilities than humans, so the mechanics are there as both a way of adding flavor to the characters of that species and giving them some form of balance against humans. Though, there are also benefits to having high Grief, Greed, or Hatred, so it is a balancing act to keep them high but not at the breaking point. Faith is an optional add-on and it's tied to human magic. Most of the mechanics reinforce a kind of Tolkien-esque view of the species. Elves live so long that the years begin to weigh on them, until at Grief 10 they sail off to Valinor. IIRC, Grief also helps them power their magic spellsongs too. Dwarves get empowered the more gold and things they gain, until at Greed 10 they lock themselves away in a vault.
Someone else could come up with different stats to reflect their world. The brilliant part is having a stat that influences how a character is played differently than human characters, so the other species aren't just humans with funny ears attached or hairier feet and smaller height.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@Ominous said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
The brilliant part is having a stat that influences how a character is played differently than human characters, so the other species aren't just humans with funny ears attached or hairier feet and smaller height.
But you can just do this by having well-developed cultures for the groups. I don't play my Malkavian differently from my Toreador because one has the derangement Sanguinary Aninism and the other has the bane of obsession over beauty; I play them differently because the clans are different. Mechanics are, at best, a subtle reinforcement of culture.
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@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
But you can just do this by having well-developed cultures for the groups
Yes, you can. Another tool in the toolbelt doesn't mean it suddenly becomes the only tool. And, as I said in the first post, Pugmire and Monarchies of Mau are also very interesting settings with well developed cultures, and they don't have any mechanical reinforcement.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@Ominous said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
And, as I said in the first post, Pugmire and Monarchies of Mau are also very interesting settings with well developed cultures, and they don't have any mechanical reinforcement.
These games are about puppies and kittens respectively, so I think you ought not need mechanical reinforcement to spot the differences.
