Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu

[Packrat]

I really feel that not allowing celestial exalted as PCs would be by far the best option.

Allow them as NPCs for specific plots or stories? Sure! They make great protagonists and similar, but they should not be anyone's main character unless you want things like people making 'placeholders' that they RP only until they can make a Solar or similar, with the dragonblooded PCs also then basically being allowed to continue living or achieving anything only according to the whims of experienced celestials.

To put things into perspective in my tabletop game we had a starting Solar fight a duel against an Essence 3 dragon blooded who had mastered a martial art (a good one! Shining Point) and had probably over a hundred experience points spent in total. This duel was completely and totally one sided with the outcome never in doubt. It is not as bad as in 2e where above a certain point a Solar could render irrelevant dozens of dragon blooded but the power differential is still huge. An equivalent experience Solar is very much a 'boss battle' for an entire well coordinated brotherhood of five Dragon Blooded.

[Coin]

@packrat said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

I really feel that not allowing celestial exalted as PCs would be by far the best option.

Allow them as NPCs for specific plots or stories? Sure! They make great protagonists and similar, but they should not be anyone's main character unless you want things like people making 'placeholders' that they RP only until they can make a Solar or similar, with the dragonblooded PCs also then basically being allowed to continue living or achieving anything only according to the whims of experienced celestials.

To put things into perspective in my tabletop game we had a starting Solar fight a duel against an Essence 3 dragon blooded who had mastered a martial art (a good one! Shining Point) and had probably over a hundred experience points spent in total. This duel was completely and totally one sided with the outcome never in doubt. It is not as bad as in 2e where above a certain point a Solar could render irrelevant dozens of dragon blooded but the power differential is still huge. An equivalent experience Solar is very much a 'boss battle' for an entire well coordinated brotherhood of five Dragon Blooded.

I disagree, but mostly because, well, I want to play Celestial Exalted.

If the power disparity is a problem you anticipate, then put in other safeguards or rules to handle it, "realism" be damned. If you want the Dragon-Blooded to be dominant in an area, just tell the Celestial players not to fuck with that area.

If you can't trust the players not to respect their fellow players' fun, then are they players you want in your game?

I mean, you're literally setting a whole place where the DBs are dominant -- DBs dominate due to NUMBERS. You don't need "more DB PCs than Celestial PCs" to make that point. You just need to be willing to pull out the Mass Combat with four dozen Dragon-Blooded all working in sync.

[Ganymede]

@coin

"This is a Space Marine game, but you can't play a Space Marine because they are way OP."

I'm with you on this.

[Groth]

@coin said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

@surasanji said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

@warma-sheen I hear you and I hope to be able to get it done right.. I'm prepared to fail, if it doesn't work out the way I hope.

I agree with you regarding where the fun starts or stops. Exalted is a character driven game (imho), and failure is and SHOULD be on the table even for powerful exalts.

Losing is a huge part of character growth, I feel, so. I should hope my players expect to win some, lose some and write some great stories in the process.

As I've never run a game before, I'm excited to give it a try all the same.

If you're playing Exalted and winning all the time, then why are you playing Exalted?

Like, I get it. Solars are the exemplary best at everything -- that's their thing, excellence -- but that excellence can only come to real light when challenged; if you never find something you actually need to overcome, you're really just a bully. And yes, Solars eventually all basically become bullies, but the point of the game is before, not after!

Thematically Exalted in general and Solar exalted in particular has never been a game where the player characters are expected to face great difficulty in their area of expertise. Rather it's about exploring the consequences of power.

You'll have no problem dealing with the local god, monster or corrupt official but will that improve the lives of the locals or will you bring unintended consequences upon their heads?

[Coin]

@groth said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

@coin said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

@surasanji said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

@warma-sheen I hear you and I hope to be able to get it done right.. I'm prepared to fail, if it doesn't work out the way I hope.

I agree with you regarding where the fun starts or stops. Exalted is a character driven game (imho), and failure is and SHOULD be on the table even for powerful exalts.

Losing is a huge part of character growth, I feel, so. I should hope my players expect to win some, lose some and write some great stories in the process.

As I've never run a game before, I'm excited to give it a try all the same.

If you're playing Exalted and winning all the time, then why are you playing Exalted?

Like, I get it. Solars are the exemplary best at everything -- that's their thing, excellence -- but that excellence can only come to real light when challenged; if you never find something you actually need to overcome, you're really just a bully. And yes, Solars eventually all basically become bullies, but the point of the game is before, not after!

Thematically Exalted in general and Solar exalted in particular has never been a game where the player characters are expected to face great difficulty in their area of expertise. Rather it's about exploring the consequences of power.

You'll have no problem dealing with the local god, monster or corrupt official but will that improve the lives of the locals or will you bring unintended consequences upon their heads?

I mean, yes and no. When you start, you are absolutely supposed to have some issues; or not, and that brings on the issues when you exceed your grasp.

But it doesn't really matter. I could argue the intricacies of Exalted's themes and what you can do with them and what's the "right way" or the "correct themes" of the game all day, but it's pointless.

Solution's the same.

[Lemon Fox]

@coin said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

I disagree, but mostly because, well, I want to play Celestial Exalted.

Pretty much this. Dragonblooded sound cool as hell... But I'd really like to make a Lunar.

[Jennkryst]

This is a lot of the reason I suggested 'just do all of creation'. Have the Blessed Isle for those who want to do Dragonblooded politics. Let the Celestials run around the threshold doing sandbox adventures... yes, with some plot, but also spread out so your Abyssals aren't pushed right up next to the Solars, and now we're in a pvp scenario.

It's how City of Hope actually manages to have semi-working antag players. By keeping them VERY SEPARATE from the white hats, who will all try to murder them instantly.

THEN AGAIN, I tend to make high conviction/low compassion characters, so even my 'non-antag' exalts are pretty damn antag when you look at them.

[Lemon Fox]

@jennkryst said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

This is a lot of the reason I suggested 'just do all of creation'. Have the Blessed Isle for those who want to do Dragonblooded politics. Let the Celestials run around the threshold doing sandbox adventures... yes, with some plot, but also spread out so your Abyssals aren't pushed right up next to the Solars, and now we're in a pvp scenario.
It's how City of Hope actually manages to have semi-working antag players. By keeping them VERY SEPARATE from the white hats, who will all try to murder them instantly.
THEN AGAIN, I tend to make high conviction/low compassion characters, so even my 'non-antag' exalts are pretty damn antag when you look at them.

I would disagree because 'People have a kingdom over here and have made 2300 posts about its events in the last month' mean a lot less to me than 'the city/region/country I live in had zero posts about its events in the last month'.

[Packrat]

3rd edition also does make things more... I want to say 'grounded' than 2nd edition? In 2E once exalts had some experience it started to make anything that was not powerful exalted increasingly irrelevant and pointless and that was very much to the game's detriment.

Solars in 3e are still tremendously powerful but things like having loyal mortal henchmen are legitimately valuable. A well established mortal sorcerer can be a meaningful ally, a squad of goons is a major force multiplier (if prone to being rapidly sworded) etc. There is no more mind controlling an entire civilisation by chatting with a beggar once a week and similar so you can actually have people acting within a (large) area and have things like the local societies matter longer term.

A group of starting Solars can absolutely still knock over a well armed city state in a single day but running it and keeping it secure will likely keep them occupied instead of everyone immediately becoming their slavish devotees instantly - even if they have a super demagogue they need to actually promise people stuff and work at it. (Even if not very hard).

[Jennkryst]

Can't believe I initially overlooked pointing this one out, but THIS

@surasanji said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

In that same vein Abyssals are also likely to be allowed, but highly regulated. There are only 100 of them in all of Creation, a precious commodity of the Deathlords. They will likely be given out to trusted players who can create RP as they will absolutely be antagonists.

Is just the limited Jedi/Force User staff favoritism argument waiting to happen.

[GreenFlashlight]

@jennkryst Not for nothing but I think it's okay to institute a policy of "you're not allowed to play a lunatic who is compelled to murder the whole world until and unless you prove you can handle it well."

[Ganymede]

@greenflashlight said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

Not for nothing but I think it's okay to institute a policy of "you're not allowed to play a lunatic who is compelled to murder the whole world until and unless you prove you can handle it well."

Or -- OR -- maybe just institute a policy of "you're not allowed to play a lunatic who is compelled to murder the whole world."

[Jennkryst]

@greenflashlight 1) Renegade Abyssals exist, and 2) Non-Abyssals can easily try to destroy the whole world.

[Lemon Fox]

I don't expect a huge outcry about not being able to play Abyssals. They're not Jedi. They aren't even Sith. Being an Abyssal is awful and a commitment from the lore.

[Groth]

Historically Abyssals have been one of the least popular playable splats. In large part because Abyssals have just been worse Solars, all the flexibility of Solars got traded into becoming more goth, murder and death none of which is particularly useful. Nothing stops a Solar from dressing in bones and black while they recite bad poetry.

Regardless I think the only ones who have third edition books are Solars, Lunars and DBs?

[Jennkryst]

@groth said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

Historically [non-Solars] have been one of the least popular playable splats. In large part because [non-Solars] have just been worse Solars, all the flexibility of Solars got traded into [something else thematic, but] none of which is particularly useful [enough to counterbalance the SOLAR SUPREMACY!!!]. Nothing stops a Solar from [doing whatever they want because they are SOLARS].

Sure, they can't SHAPESHIFT, but they can get mutations and have SOLAR CHARMS in their Deadly Beastman. They also don't have a tell, so their larceny disguise charms are BETTER than a Lunar stealing/cloning a form.

Regardless I think the only ones who have third edition books are Solars, Lunars and DBs?

Really, THIS is a better reason for why not to have them as even 'trusted' PCs, at least until the book comes out. There has been an impression that Abyssals are going to be more than just 'solars, but spooky' this edition. Time will tell, but it looks more promising than prior editions.

[Wizz]

@jennkryst said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

Sure, they can't SHAPESHIFT, but they can get mutations and have SOLAR CHARMS in their Deadly Beastman.

You can take mutations as a Solar, but you don't get them in a neat package deal like Deadly Beastman and the other Lunar charms that build on it, so you have to pay full costs for each of what are essentially permanent disfigurements that mark you as a freakish Wyld-twisted outcast, which you would need to constantly pay motes towards disguising.

You'd likely be dedicating your entire CG merit and bonus point pool and probably some extra XP after just to make this one thing (being a "better" Beastman that...can't change back) barely functional, with the Charms necessary to prevent your mutant ass from being chased out of town, where a Lunar just has to choose one or two charms to get an equivalent form that they're automatically able to shift in and out of.

That sounds like a pain in the ass character concept just to make a completely OOC point.

Like, Solars are still pretty OP, I don't think anybody could really dispute that, but at least they seem to be giving the other Exalts really unique niches that Solars can't just stomp all over this time around.

[Jennkryst]

@wizz said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

You can take mutations as a Solar, but you don't get them in a neat package deal like Deadly Beastman and the other Lunar charms that build on it, so you have to pay full costs for each of what are essentially permanent disfigurements that mark you as a freakish Wyld-twisted outcast, which you would need to constantly pay motes towards disguising.

Bold of you to assume that the 10-13ft tall HUGE Solar even cares about disguise charms. And even if the perma-mutated beastman solar cared about being disguised (pass it off as a godblooded mutation, or a sign of high-dragonblooded heritage?) PERFECT DISGUISE CHARMS ARE PERFECT. And unlike Lunars, they can break the commitment and 'power up' with having more motes to spend, because of course they'll stunt it back, or get it through charm drip, or or or...

Having played on the last, uh... maths five or six incarnations (HAH) of Exalted MUs, I speak from experience of what DOES happen there, not just theorycrafting what the lore says ought to.

Like, Solars are still pretty OP, I don't think anybody could really dispute that, but at least they seem to be giving the other Exalts really unique niches that Solars can't just stomp all over this time around.

This is a valid point. Out of those last five or six versions, only the most recent was 3e. And it closed shortly after Dragonblooded Kickstarter manuscript came out - not even the final copy. So NEW THINGS may mean new player approaches. There's also the folks who WILL play other things for the niche RP aspects. But it still ends up being like 20-30 Solars, 15 Infernals, 10 Abyssals, 15 Lunars, 6 Alchemicals, 4 Sidereals, 2 Dragonblooded, 1-3 Raksha, and maybe some god/fae/ghost blooded, if folks are feeling FANCY. Those aren't the ACTIVE numbers. Those are the TOTAL numbers. Except, as mentioned, that last go-round, where it was 90% Solars because

But these are ALSO the sorts of wierdos who go 'WELL, an 18 year old on Earth is alive for so many days, and Creation has fifteen 28-day months, which means 420 days (plus 5 for calibration) a year...' to run the numbers and figure out just how young they can get away with making their character and still argue 'but but but... LEGAL ON EARTH!!!'

No, fucker, your 16 year old character cannot fake their way past the +policy age restriction.

...

I, uh... lost my train of thought somewhere. RIGHT, the typical Exalted MUer does not follow the same logic as the Soapbox tends to. So gotta plan for it.

[GreenFlashlight]

@jennkryst said in Interest Check: Exalted 3rd ed Mu:

Bold of you to assume that the 10-13ft tall HUGE Solar even cares about disguise charms.

I really hope that character app mentions how lonely it feels and what it does to your psyche when you're unable to enter most buildings, when you have to make your own clothes using needles and thread so small you can't even hold them between your fingers, when you have to spend most of your day hunting and foraging because your body mass probably requires 8,000 calories per day (a lot of it meat to keep up your muscle mass) and it ain't like Creation has McDonald's: what it does to your brain when you're so far removed from the human experience even prior to Exaltation, in other words.

[Jennkryst]

@greenflashlight Uh... tall just helps to keep their cult focused on them. Worship+followers to do all that stuff for you.

Also really hope you critique every game over needing to track their characters' caloric intake to make sure they maintain their stats.