So, just forewarning if the phrase Mothshead doesn't mean anything to you, you havn't progressed enough in Judy's storyline to know what I am talking about, and this entire thread will be spoiler for one particular sequence. Be aware however, that I think it is important that you be prepared for it, because the game does not at all address the moral/emotional/ethical considerations of the sequence at all, and instead just assumes the players know what is going on.. Also I use the terms BD and BTL interchangeably, they are for different settings but effectively mean the same thing.
So as you progress in Judy's story line, you are out to find your employer and rescue her.. but in order to get it, you need to buy a BTL/BD.. and you turn it on.. and you start in a dark room, getting dragged.. there is palpable fear going on, the man you are reliving the experience of is terrified..
At this point, less than 5 seconds in, I went third person, and went nope, not watching this, because it is a snuff btl. The description of the item hints that it is for sure, and the setting gives it away, but there is something more here going on that I think the game doesn't really address, and will make many people feel creepy/bad if they truly confronted what this entire situation could represent..
So I ask you, the player of this game the following questions;
Did you watch it all the way through first person?
Why did you watch it?
Did you watch it becuase;
You were curious what would happen?
You wanted to prove to yourself or someone that you were brave enough to finish it?
You find the concept of death fascinating?
You find it kinda sexy?
You wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me so I watched it!
I wanted to enjoy a 'dark' experience!
Now why would someone buy a Snuff BTL in Cyberpunk 2077...
They were curious what would happen?
They wanted to prove to themselves or someone that they were brave enough to finish it?
They find the concept of death fascinating?
They find it kinda sexy?
They wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me, so I watched it..
I wanted to enjoy a dark experience.
Let that sink in for a momment, the same exact reasons why I person might buy a BD in this world.. has the same reasons why a person like you might start getting into BD's.
The most horrible, commercialized form of death possible, the person in question, kept in a prison cell, perpetually afraid, told he was going to die, and then murdered via a futuristic method.. you bought a chip of that and watched it all the way through..
But it's just a video game you say! It's not real. Yah, BD"s arn't real, your right! The guys already dead! It's just a log of one of the most horrifying experiences of that person life, put on repeat for hundreds if not thousands of people to 'enjoy' on their own. It isn't real human suffering at all! Oh wait, you mean Cyberpunk 2077 is just a game? Okay but then.. BD's have Programmers spending countless man hours building an atmosphere, emotional tones or ideas. Carefully tinkering with lighting, making sure all the sensations of the program 'feel' right... a connection that should feel very unsettling. That wall is starting to feel really thin isn't it?
Take your most horrifying experience, and imagine it being captured on tape, for commercial profit, tinkered and tuned until it is perfected.. so that other people can enjoy it. I don't think anyone could live with that emotional damage, even if it wasn't a snuff film...
.
Now.. if you accept that a mistake was made, or are horrified.. just be glad it wasn't the real deal, that this wasn't a real thing.. and take comfort in it, and after this, you should be prepared for a day that hopefully will never come.... and the fact that CD Project red doesn't point this out before hand and after makes this pretty %#*#ing messed up in my opinion.
Edit:
To clarify, the message here is that it is ridiculously easy to fall into a trap, to be tricked into dehumanizing and marginalizing human life, and that the medium used, makes that line incredibly thin. The line is there, but it is thin, and is meant to make you think about how easy it was to get tricked into contributing to suffering/death/pain. Instead of spending hours trying to convince yourself this isn't real, and thus can't be possible, try and instead to spend time thinking about how you might resist similar incidents in real life, and if you'd be smart enough to know that there is always an option to say no.
@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:
So I ask you, the player of this game the following questions;
Did you watch it all the way through first person?
Yes.
Why did you watch it?
Did you watch it becuase;
You were curious what would happen?
You wanted to prove to yourself or someone that you were brave enough to finish it?
You find the concept of death fascinating?
You find it kinda sexy?
You wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me so I watched it!
I watched it because it is supposed to be a dark game that leaves you feeling a little disturbed and frankly I think this is one of the best sequences in the game because it shows just how fucked up the world is.
Like... it's a Cyberpunk game, and as much as people roll their eyes and use some refrain like 'not the world of fluffy bunnies' for WoD, Cyberpunk is pretty well known for being gloriously fucked up. Anyone remotely familiar with this genre knows what they're getting into. That sequence is hardly the most horrific thing to ever happen in the series.
Now why would someone buy a Snuff BTL in Cyberpunk 2077...
They were curious what would happen?
They wanted to prove to themselves or someone that they were brave enough to finish it?
They find the concept of death fascinating?
They find it kinda sexy?
They wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me, so I watched it..
Because the people in Cyberpunk have become so deadened to everything in the world through mass availability a la Brave New World that they push things to further and further extremes? Because there is a market for it, and so someone is going to meet the demand for it, in a world of rampant consumerism?
I mean, we could write an entire social commentary on why something like Call of Duty glorifies murder, too, but again -- people know what they're signing up for. They don't need a warning that people are going to die in this game. Like -- that's a given. In the same way that use of magic in DnD is a given, or the presence of monsters in Resident Evil.
This scene is meant to be visceral. It's meant to make you feel bad, and understand just how absolutely fucked up that world is, and I think that they managed to hit the nail on the head perfectly with this sequence. If you came off feeling bad and going 'wtf', good. That was the point.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
@derp My post disappeared, so I'll have to rewrite..
The point is that I am making is that cyberpunk is about the insidious dehumanization efforts of the world on the average person. It isn't just a 'dark' game, it is more than that..
And by watching that all the way through because you wanted a 'dark' experience, to fully experience 'cyberpunk' you fell into a trap, you dehumanized yourself, you cheapened the human life, all of existence, to a dark experience'.
And saying that call of duty promotes violence isn't what I'm getting at, at all, it's far more insidious, far more disturbing.. because most people arn't going to be special forces- that disconnect is easy..but what about watching TV? Remember, you had the option to opt out right away, that ability was available, and the goal of the situation was to research- not experience the BD.
I've added a 'dark experience' to the list of possible reasons.
@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:
you may be specifiable or complicit in this theoretical market- and that you helped contribute to some form of human suffering..
You're reaching. Pretty far, here. I follow your point, but I don't think it's a particularly valid point. Saying that some things like this might exist in the real world is fine, but claiming that a player is contributing to that by not getting super-triggered by a sequence in a game doesn't really logically follow.
@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:
I hate that it doesn't TALK about it enough.
...I don't know what you're defining as 'enough' here, but I also think it's a stretch. There was all kinds of commentary on it throughout the entire mission, and even after, experiencing Evelyn's various traumas and seeing the effects on her. This person that you have come to know, and (possibly?) like.
Just because the in-game characters don't react with our contemporary understanding of the situation doesn't mean that no commentary was had. Nor does commentary have to be explicit.
Evenlyn's trauma is a diffirent problem all together, having to do with Bunraku Sex Dolls,
and your right, it is a bit of a reach to say actively contributing, but perhaps more apt to say- how easy it is to trick you into it?
Years ago I stumbled across some snuff films.
The real stuff.
I watched in that train wreck 'can't look away' mixed with 'I want to understand what would drive someone to do this' kind of way.
I can tell you (and I've talked to someone else who has experienced similar) that the one in CP2077 is not remotely the same. Oh, sure, it's intense, but it's not close. And there's been similar in so many other games.
It's like comparing TV 'gore' (or lack thereof since people often die on TV without any blood) to movie 'gore' (where it's often in comical amounts) to RL 'gore'. As someone who experienced this (losing massive amounts of blood) first-hand, I can point to some media depictions that are close to the real thing, but most are.... wildly off-base and purposefully so.
The BD? Same thing.
It didn't phase me. Not because I'm some evil terrible horrible soul who wants to enable the murder of people for fun and profit, but because I've seen (not because I sought it out, but because an internet rabbit hole caused me to stumble across it years ago) the real thing and the one in CP2077 was the Lite version.
@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:
how easy it is to trick you into it?
...it's not? Given that it is a game, and people are very clearly aware of that.
Like, there are healthy levels of dissociation, and this is one of them. Knowing the difference between fantasy and reality is an important human attribute. This is fantasy. That is not a real person, no actual individuals were physically harmed in the making of this string of ones and zeroes.
There is a difference between getting tricked into something and keeping proper perspective.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
@derp See, again with the dissociation, but I don't know that is entirely appropriate in this case? The way I see it, the lines are incredibly thin, there are far too many comparable justifications/reasons that should make things uncomfortable close life. The game is trying to get a message across with this sequence.. and you might go its the world is fucked up.. sure.. but that everywhere in the game, it's on the street corners, in the corporate high-rises. The world is fucked.
This sequence is trying to get at something else- why would they make it a first person BTL otherwise? You could of just done an investigation of distribution networks.. but you do the BTL.. why? Because they want you to go through it, have that choice. But then why did they do that? What is the reason and motivation of a Polish studio to demonstrate how easy it is to dehumanize and be complicit in some sort of criminal activity?
@Auspice I mean this with the best possible intentions, and humor but I never expected to be gatekept with regards to snuff film. That wasn't something I was aware of that I'd have to deal with lol.
And again missing the representation, the undertones, why is this being done?
@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:
What is the reason and motivation of a Polish studio to demonstrate how easy it is to dehumanize and be complicit in some sort of criminal activity?
What is the reason and motivation for you to convince everyone how moral and amazing you are while they're all just criminals in the wings?
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@auspice A gross characterization of my point, and frankly insulting. I hold no moral superiority in this regard.
Considering many folks unless properly aware of the context of what this is is going to run through it... and not realize that they were trapped/tricked. Instead of trying to justify how it isn't real, maybe instead engage with the idea of how easy it was to become complicit in this worlds criminal BD scene, and ask how horrifying it is that its so easy to just sort of slide into it.. even in our real world now. An Ordinary person is just as vulnerable to these hardcore BD's as some freak in the right set of circumstances. The market doesn't exist because there are a few bad eggs or hardcore freaks, but everyday users like you or I.
Yeah, I'm with @Auspice here. You -- seem to be having a lot of trouble distinguishing between the fantasy world of the game and the reality in which we live, and conflating actions taken in a game with actions taken in the real world.
Maybe like -- take a minute and take a step back, and reassert the division between those two things.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
@derp I disagree, I actually know exactly what I am talking about, and there is no conflation of reality and fantasy. What I am getting at is that thankfully this lesson isn't real, but it should still be a lesson.. but I guess I'm not articulating it well enough, so I guess someone else will need to articulate it for me..
https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution-ebook/dp/B01G1F0F84
Discussing what this sort of thing looks like in real life tends to take some very, VERY dark turns.
One aspect that needs to be addressed about BD/BTL is that this technology artificially stimulates powerful neurochemical and hormone production in the user's brain. A chiphead is actually getting jolts of adrenaline, dopamine, endorphins and so on from the recorded experience of the subject. With Better Than Life, the production of these chemicals in the mind are artificially exaggerated to produce an even greater neurostimulant high.
So, beyond the general 'disassociation' in your average Cyberpunk setting, you have the highly addictive nature of such technology in play as well. Think of it as the cyberware equivalent of extreme drugs like Krokodil (WARNING: do not GIS 'Krokodil effects'); addictive highs that have incredible risks, but are still used because of relative availability in the setting as well as progressive 'plateauing' and needing an increasingly more powerful high as the body starts adjusting.
Also, @Kireek, you are making the assumption that all BD material in a cyberpunk setting is snuff clips; or at least recordings of illegal/immoral activities. Completely untrue. A good chunk of BD is pornographic or 'extreme sports' in nature. Users wanting to experience what it feels like to have sex with a particular star or as a different gender. Or, users wanting to experience biking down a hill or base jumping or other dangerous but still legal activities that involve a high shot of adrenaline and such.
@runescryer I know what encompasses btls, calhots, BD's and everything in between from stage productions involving dragons, cutting edge AR Video games to pornographic records. IN this regard, I am discussing specifically snuff.
Yeah, I'm still not convinced that you aren't reading entirely too much into this, but you seem pretty unswayable in your opinion and just want to hear it in another's voice, so. I think I"m gonna check out of this one.
Hopefully you can find some closure on this topic.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
@derp I would recommend that book, it basically articulates a very similar argument or 'opinion' just about a different context.
I've read this whole thread and I am still not 100% clear what it is exactly you're trying to get across here.
Like, if you chose to let that one segment of the game play out without interruption, you're an immoral person who is contributing to the degradation of society?
Or like...by allowing it to play out, you are unwittingly being molded to accept a reality where snuff VR actually exists, and to help bring it about? Like German soldiers were pressured to conform with the atrocities of the Holocaust?
That's...uh. That's pretty extreme.
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@wizz The goal here is how easy it is to be psychologically tricked and conditioned into contributing to horrible things without realizing you have a way out. That perhaps whatever the context, or justification, you still may be tricked at the end of the day, and that there is a larger lesson to be learned about life and the human condition through this sequence. It's easy to go this would never happen to me, this is a video game, its easy to delineate what is right and wrong.. and then never engage with the actual subject at hand about what just happened.
The game makes it pretty clear IMO how unacceptable it is and shows you the consequences in a very stark way with what happens to Evelyn.
I really don't think it's trying to "trick" you into indulging.
@runescryer I know what encompasses btls, calhots, BD's and everything in between from stage productions involving dragons, cutting edge AR Video games to pornographic records. IN this regard, I am discussing specifically snuff.
