Optional Realities & Project Redshift

Thenomain

When you state that you are used to the game being more or less complete. Can you give me an example of what you mean? Do you mean most MUSH use RPG systems as their game systems and thus all the rules are quantified and known to everyone after they login to the game?

Yes. Even hand-crafted RPGs are generally considered complete enough to do conflict resolution, with enough guidance in the writing so that players can agree upon what this means.

The favor generation wouldn't actually be "changed" per se. It would be designed on a matrix to shift. These shifts would be a game feature and an intended function so players would be aware of that when they started playing. So would that still cause players to become upset as per your example?

Possibly. It has that going for it, so perhaps it was a bad example. Let's say that you change how the Crafting System works, and suddenly the 95% of Commoners who are Tailors are suddenly much less effective, people may call "nerfing"

Can you elaborate on your "stuff happens" comment so I can better understand it? Do you mean that the game features are not properly quantified and just generally say this is how it will work with no system explaining why? Do you mean it in the sense that we brainstorm and implement features without a source material to guide us and "that stuff happens" kind of way?

It's a reiteration of two of my statements. 1) What is the game about? It seems to be about Nobles and if you want to be a Commoner then okay that's up to you, but Nobles play the real game. 2) From a Musher's perspective, Muds are encoded system of coded codeliness, and this is from a Mux coder. In putting in just enough code/RPG system to the entry, without knowing anything more about the Mudder culture I don't know what to write between the lines.

I imagine it'd be the same if someone told you that EldritchMux was "not a typical WoD Mux" and that we were focusing on "events mixing all spheres". Not knowing what a "Typical WoD Mux" was, you wouldn't know what I meant, or what to expect, nor why I was jumping up and down like a schoolgirl who's heard her favorite boy band has come to town. If you said, "That's nice, dear. I'm glad you're excited," then went on with your life, I wouldn't blame you one bit.

That's how I feel about Usurper. It looks like a Middling Politics game focusing on a coded Politics system with possible future branching out. Very Castle d'Image. I would play it if someone asked me to, which is downright praise from me, but it doesn't hit my buttons the way that, say, "The House" from Ted William's Otherworld would.

I guess I'm saying that the write-up may have too much Mud in it for me to "get it".

I should dig up my "Mars!" write-up sometime, tho it is absolutely a love-letter to Space: 1889, but the initial game world scenario was mostly going to be focused around solving a political situation. Now that 1889 is back out, it doesn't quite serve the same purpose anymore.

Jeshin

Alright so it appears the crux of the issue is that this was a 600 word submission which was unable to qualify those features and thus the vague nature of them are populated by our presumption. As a MUD player and currently an active developer I can envision how I might implement these features and thus the shared experience touchstone that Griatch and the Judges shared enabled us to interpret his intentions.

That's cool but it doesn't help you, so I will do that now.

1 - Activities: I believe this game would have some kind of "meta-plot" which is a staff guided narrative which gives context and plot hooks for players to use in their own storytelling / roleplay. This also gives direction to what they should be doing with their characters to achieve their goal.

Example: The Empresses Island is soon to be hit by a tropical storm. Some believe that it is natural, some believe it is the Empresses displeasure with the people, while others (the commoners and lesser nobles) only wish to protect their lives and holdings before it hits. This meta-plot which could last anywhere from 1 month to 6 months would give a sense of impending disaster. People would be making deals with each other to pool resources to reinforce buildings or build storehouses for goods as the storm might wipeout their ability to produce goods for awhile. Commoners would be driven to a higher level of productivity. In fighting between the nobility could see commoners used as saboteurs and thieves to destabilize another nobles plans to weather the storm. Some could try and curry more favor believing that if they are high enough that the Empress herself would somehow "will it" and their holdings would be safe. So on and so forth. Meta-plot provides direction which generates activity that is relevant to the story and narrative and setting of the game.

2 - MUD features tend to be tweaked after implementation because of their inherently automated status and because unlike many of the MUSH RPG systems they were not developed by professional game designers, thus mistakes are made. It is widely accepted that this would happen based on player feedback and staff's ability to see the bigger picture. If there were any significant like game changing updates required to these systems there'd likely be a discussion (privately) between staff and afflicted players to somehow ensure their game experience is not ruined. You know tweaking their skill list, providing them with extra skill points or providing them with extra money in a one time "compensation". Depends on the feature and the game design.

3 - For you to Understand why Usurper was "groundbreaking" and basically won first place I will impart upon you some MUD history. Where MUSHes took the more tabletop approach and I think we can all agree MUSHes tend to have stronger emote/pose cultures and more collaborative storytelling. MUDs went into dungeon crawling and combat and more DnD-ish direction. Action was tied to Story and as such I would say a fair portion of MUD players are inherently combat-oriented. Now when the RPI (Roleplay Intensive) sub-genre of MUD was born this was basically a step towards storytelling and roleplay supported by coded systems and action.

Basically it was a more mature storytelling medium within the MUD genre itself. Still combat focused but with automated systems for crafting, medicine, travel, and economies (though they are objectively all bad in my opinion). Usurper is the next step in MUDs journey to a more mature narrative style. It is what I would call a middle-ground between MUSH and MUD. Something that is inherently social and intrigue driven with the automated systems to support actions and combat, but they are supportive to the social and intrigue aspects. Currently there is no game (which I am familiar with) that supports this in the MUD genre.

I hope this helps bring to light why Usurper is so intriguing for us on the other side of the table and why it actually makes me pretty happy that you say you'd try it, because that's exactly why it's special. MUSH players would try it and it's a touchstone our communities could share.

PS - Usurper is not in development in any form what-so-ever. Griatch merely entered the contest and had the idea. He is currently busy developing the Evennia engine which works for MUSH development and MUDs and MUXs too!

EDIT - Clarification. I believe the majority of MUD economies are objectively bad. Not the automated systems as a whole.

Thenomain

#3 is probably key. It now sounds like:

Musher: Um ... yes? You can do something else. Go you.
Mudder: So when are you getting a real coding language?
Musher: I'm too busy freely posing with your mom.

We have tried economies and guilds and automated mobs and so forth (nnngh, coded language systems) and we've eventually rejected them for bringing nothing substantial to the table, or requiring a far higher investment than coding a counter and doing these things manually. On the flip side, we have been re-coding and re-re-re-coding combat systems since forever and that gets old.

To be fair, I would try a Mud if someone played there with me, not as a role-playing experience but as an MMO one. People here have praised RPI Muds, and even World of Warcraft sounds interesting except for the MMO part.

EDIT - Clarification. I believe the majority of MUD economies are objectively bad. Not the automated systems as a whole.

I think all fan-created economies are objectively bad. One of the best automated economies I've ever seen is in the board game Power Grid.

Jeshin

I would say that a quality RPI would take an adjustment for a MUSH player but that the quality of roleplay would probably surprise them. The justification for coded systems comes from the belief that players can be trusted to tell stories but can't be trusted to arbitrate all situations. Enter automated systems which are utilized with roleplay to create an immersive and "fair" experience.

A good example of the benefits of Immersive gameplay comes from Atonement or Armageddon. Both are RPIs and both had NPCs which could codedly kill players in real time. The fact that exploration was very real and very dangerous added weight to the activity and generated a lot of RP around it including (obviously) RP of losing people you know. Now automated systems have their limits and "quality roleplayers" will often resort to code only when it is no longer appropriate to continue the scene roleplaying.

Example: Jeshin is hiding in the bushes as Thenomain passes by. He hops out with a crossbow in his hand and points it at Thenomain. Jeshin has codedly aimed a loaded crossbow at Thenomain. Now 2 things can happen. Thenomain could attempt to speedwalk away (automated system) fight back (automated system) or roleplay being scared and holding his hands up or something (roleplay system). We'd like our players to go for the third option until such time one of the two players feels the need to enact an automated system. Such as Thenomain lying about having no money and Jeshin not believing it so I shoot him with the crossbow effectively using an automated system that presents real threat to the scene. It all blends together a lot better than I can convey in my examples I'm afraid.

EDIT - On Project Redshift we are currently trying to blind automated combat (and other systems) more strongly with roleplay to create a "next-generation" RPI experience. You can read our article on immersive design here: http://optionalrealities.com/designing-immersive-combat-systems/

Thenomain

@Jeshin said:

I would say that a quality RPI would take an adjustment for a MUSH player but that the quality of roleplay would probably surprise them.

Consider your average Musher thinks of Muds as MMOs. I have seen quality RP on an MMO, but it was still vastly limited by the medium and was not what could be done in a pure-text medium. This is fine. MMO is MMO.

What you're describing in your example are no different than on a Mush. Combat is often coded and can be coded blind. Speed-walking becomes the same stat system that handles combat (athletics/dodge). Putting your hands up is role-play and can be weighed equally to the stat system, or even be engaged as a part of the stat system (fast-talk).

Mush can be used to create much that Mud has, so it's not the limitations of the code. (Mind you, Mush's various code systems are limited and horrible, but can still be coerced to do things.) Conversely, Mud can be used to create everything that Mush has.

What I find of people who favor Muds is the reliance on automated systems. The speed-walk systems evolved from a need where the speed of ones network connection and the capabilities of the client program. A Musher would see someone appear suddenly in combat and say, "You were just in the next town. There's no way you could be here. Go away." The reliance on automated code can be good, or it can be bad.

We've been discussing a similar argument on the reliance on player consent for a very, very long time, but it's probably the culture of code reliance vs. consent reliance that marks one of the largest differences between a Mud and a Mush.

Jeshin

It seems we're not so different you and I. Perhaps in another time or another life we could have been friends.

No, but I would agree. It's a cultural difference but I think we have a lot more in common than we have separate. One of the goals of Optional Realities is to try and provide developers with education and tools on design for MUDs and MUSHes and so forth. I'm still toying with what my next article will be, I may have to write one about text-based gaming as a genre and the subsets within it.

Chime

@Jeshin There was at least one, set on Luna, I think. It didn't go well.

An eclipse-phase MUD with strong promotion of RP would be... well. Pretty awesome. hmmmmm.

Usually, I'm not a mud player as anything remotely grindy is instantly a huge put-off. Usually. Sometimes, well implemented NPC combat/puzzle things might be of interest. I know they're of large interest to a lot of other people.

In terms of technology base though, MUSH is one of the most primitive, largely because it never needed to be more. The community at its best is more focused on MU RP as a literary form. Or so I keep telling myself.

Jeshin

Yeah, I agree that grinding is not exactly RPs best friend. It's something we're addressing in our development phase. That being said MUDs like Burning Post II are likely closer to MUSHes as they operate on RPXP which is gained during scenes and by emote/pose. They have coded functions but they have threaded commands which integrate with emotes.

Basically if I emote a combative action, with a special symbol in front of ~cleave (or something like that) it will enact the code. It's one of the games listed on our site, Orpheus is a great staffer. Big softie.

Thenomain

@Chime said:

Sometimes, well implemented NPC combat/puzzle things might be of interest.

I used to write puzzles in TinyTIM, back when dinosaurs roamed Usenet and we had to use complex dark exit's @afail as fake commands. I helped put together their Hitchhiker's Guide, which communicated by @teleporting objects back and forth to the main Sub-Etha object in order to submit their changes. I coded a while-loop using @trigger and @if statements back on NorCon Pern, a TinyMUSH 2 game and probably the final split of Mush and Mud.

And you know what? Coding puzzles is dumb. Fun, educational, entertaining, but ultimately something that you must grow past if you want to advance the game.

Some time ago, I checked out a Mud I was interested in playing and there was this big announcement how a new area was almost done being coded with new puzzles. And I thought, "Why? If someone wants to challenge me, they describe it and I get to do the same thing." Sharks in the Rhine? Done. Highwaymen goblins? Done. Risking a fall from a cliff's edge? roll dexterity - 3 is all I need. It's very meta, but whether this is good or bad is up to you.

@Jeshin said:

RPXP which is gained during scenes and by emote/pose

Musher: Really? Goodies per pose? Enact Gaming The System #32.
Mudder: Are you done writing your 'spend/regain' system yet, Theno?
Musher: Shut up. Also, shut up.
Mudder: Are you crying?
Musher: Shut up!

Jeshin

Would you agree MUSH challenges, puzzles, random scenes rely on at least one person in the room being a competent storyteller?

If yes than would it not stand to reason that the experience might be more rewarding if a talented storyteller crafted it and it was executed as part of the world which could be enjoyed by anyone at any time?

I know that -sounds- MMO like but this is just a hypothetical question and not percisely how an RPI would handle things.

Chime

Most scenes benefit a great deal from having multiple competent storytellers that can cooperate in an ad-hoc fashion to improve the detail and interest of a narrative.

But then again, I'm more the narrativist-type than the simulationist-type.

I find MMOs to be a FANTASTIC idea-- and I've played on many of them, dating back to UltimaOnline. CORP POR

...but I find them absolutely soulcrushingly boring for the most part. It wasn't until World of Warcraft-- which many argue sort of perfected the genre-- that I realized they had flawlessly perfected most all of the parts that I hated.

Three-Eyed Crow

@Jeshin said:

If yes than would it not stand to reason that the experience might be more rewarding if a talented storyteller crafted it and it was executed as part of the world which could be enjoyed by anyone at any time?

Yes and no, which is ultimately why I both enjoy MUSHes (MUXes/MOOs/whatever RP intensive code-base you prefer) more than any other online time-waster and find them frustrating.

I play for the collaborative writing experience. You can't really code that. There's also nothing to replace it with when it's absent. It's not like MUSHes with mini-games haven't existed (Firan had tons of them) and they definitely gave players stuff to do when nobody was around to play with, but it's always 'other stuff to do' that's not really RP as I want to RP. The creative spontaneity is The Thing Itself at its best, even if it's rarely at its best.

I have no doubt auto-generated stories/pre-built campaigns you can interact with are possible, they just aren't why I keep doing this (MMOs, incidentally, have never held my attention for precisely the thinness of story reason).

Jeshin

I see that the MMO = MUD perception is pretty strong.

I would ask that you have faith that in the current RPI community that collaborative storytelling exists and is very strongly encouraged. We just build it upon a foundation of coded systems which we believe provide a consistent and immersive environment which improves roleplay (in our opinion) just like you find free posing to be a superior approach.

I am very curious though, could any of you describe a quick scene of what you think RPI/MUD roleplay looks like?

Thenomain

@Jeshin said:

Would you agree MUSH challenges, puzzles, random scenes rely on at least one person in the room being a competent storyteller?

I would not. I would say that Mush challenges, puzzles, and random scenes rely on two people who want to see what happens next.

As @Chime and now @Three-Eyed-Crow points out, Mushing is collaborative at its core. This is why we gravitate towards RPG systems as ways to abstract the challenges into manageable bits. When everything is abstracted, there is less need to repeating the same scene over and over.

In one month on a Mush, my character went from losing an archery contest (except acing it with a gun with a trick shot over my left shoulder) to shooting a cyclops in the eye while someone else tackled it off the bridge to making out with a woman who would end up a mortal enemy later on, with some random politics in between. None of these situations were coded, but they could be resolved with coded systems that managed the basics.

I loved URU. URU, for those who don't know, was an MMO by Ubisoft and Cyan. The idea was that everyone would play an explorer in the abandoned D'ni ruins and solve puzzles. But here's the problem I had with that: Once the puzzle was solved, you're just following in someone else's footprints. Why, I wondered, did someone not put a rope ladder in this key spot so I could reach this keystone? One a conflict is resolved, it's resolved. It's done, over with, and if you want to engage it again that's cool and all but it's not the kind of game that RPGs (traditionally story-based) are meant to be about.

I don't know if this is why URU failed, but fail it did. It tried to be about a story, using tools that were about playing games.

I'm sure I had a more concrete point here, but I can't remember what it is anymore.

Jeshin

@Thenomain

Elrum Irofel was a bard in Tuluk (desert fantasy setting without metal, low magick, low tech like bone swords and limited water). He was born a bard of the Circle which was basically an organization/family group of bards. He performed and learned history until he was promoted to Seeker. During auditions for people to try and become bards like himself a Masterbard hinted that the nobility had bribed the panel of judges to rig the contest. Elrum told his patron and he was banished from the Circle when his patron threatened to murder a masterbard in response.

Afterwards Elrum became a hunter and trained citizens of his city on how to defend themselves and be volunteer soldiers. He did this in hopes that it would help him win his way back into the Circle. He led patrols of players into the Grey Forest which is an area with resources for crafting and medicine making and so on so forth that had a deadly insect like race in it with poisons that made them codedly very dangerous. The patrols were regular and RPed out and we codedly killed quite a few kryl. Changes were made to the game world based on our efforts, editing kryl spawning points and so on so forth.

Anyway after 3 months of RPTs (recommended play times these are like group events) Elrum was back in the circle but now a powerful merchant house claimed he owed them an incredibly large sum of money for slighting them at one of his training RPTs. Thus he barded it up and performed for nobility and commoners a like receiving large payments for his services to buy himself out of debt.

He wound up being banished permanently and a broken man who regretted a lot of choices in his life. This was all done as a blend between coded systems and collaborative roleplay over the course of 14 months (which is how long I had the character before he died) He was generated at age 16 and died at like age 28-30.

Chime

@Thenomain said:

On[c]e a conflict is resolved, it's resolved. It's done, over with, and if you want to engage it again that's cool and all but it's not the kind of game that RPGs (traditionally story-based) are meant to be about.

For a better model of a GOOD puzzle-based mmo-ish environment, see Puzzle Pirates. Not sure it's aged well, but then neither have MUs.

Also. Probably the best MUD/MMO-ish thing out there with Eclipse-Phase similar theming would be EVE Online. Food for thought. It has quite active RP communities as well.

Jeshin

I played EvE online for several years though I wouldn't rate its RP as any more impressive than RP centric MUDs in my experience with both. CVA did give it a pretty good try though. To use a touchstone as an example...

EvE online would be a hack and slash MUD with RP elements. It wouldn't be comparable to most RP focused games in the genre as perma-death is a fairly crucial feature (in my opinion) of storytelling.

Thenomain

@Jeshin said:

perma-death is a fairly crucial feature (in my opinion) of storytelling

Said no one ever. Imagine if Frodo was killed at the Prancing Pony.

Stories must have ends, but ends do not always complete a story.

Jeshin

The possibility of permanent and real death or loss is part and parcel with conflict. Frodo doesn't have to die but the threat of death is important to his story. His bravery and sacrifice means less if it's presumed both within the story itself and by the reader that there is no chance he can or would die.

EDIT - Good chance to briefly plug the only text-based game to have the official approval of the Tolkien estate to run with its IP: http://www.middle-earth.us/

Thenomain

@Jeshin said:

The possibility of permanent and real death [...] is part and parcel with conflict.

And yet ... and yet ... most classic stories don't follow this rule.

I removed "or loss" because loss is a real threat. The appearance of the threat of death, even, but when you're telling a story about a person, you don't expect that person to die before the story is done.

We all know it's a trick, but we also love watching a trick well-performed.