Optional Realities & Project Redshift
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Nope, not staffer or owner. Just a very enthusiastic player that may or may not have had something to do with the sudden spike in numbers on the game.
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Back when I played Ernest before RL stole me away. They had 12 or less online and primarily alts. Now they're pushing 25 - 35+ which is a great turnaround. I was really very impressed. You're a godsend to your game.
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@Jeshin While the topic has wandered far from the advertisement section and might better fit in Mildly Constructive, it's fine here too. This board came about from the ashes of another called WORA, which tended to focus on MUSHes and most of the people there are now here. However, we have some few mudders and you are certainly as welcome here as anyone else. I haven't really gotten the impression that you're unwanted, for the most part, as many people have seriously engaged you in conversation who would otherwise ignore you if you had nothing worthwhile to say.
I don't agree with your classification system, but OR isn't my site, so I'm not going to say you can't have a niche audience. Particularly given your desire not to list all MUSHes since removing the automation code requirement would likely lead to that. It is true, though, that there might be an impression that you're disregarding the type of RP that most people on here prefer. Personally playing MUSHes to expand your own horizons is good, but you're the primary representative of OR, which excludes the majority of what people here care about.
Saying that making an exception for MUSHes would require exceptions for MUDs is an excuse. Just stay clear on the 3 things that matter to you at OR and realize that most here are going to disagree with the value of those requirements. It's fine, though, we all have boats to float.
MOD VOICE
Finally, you're welcome to sink or swim here like anyone else, as well as continuing to cross-post here as you've done. None of the admins are worried about losing users to OR, nor would we be upset if any gravitated that way. So continue to participate; this thread isn't inappropriate or offensive, though I'd prefer not to see cursing out of other people. -
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In the vein of advertisement (and poor timing which led to an article and a Project Redshift release coming on the same day) I'd be super interested in any feedback on this setting document or you might just find it an interesting read or you might totally hate it. Positive or Negative feedback welcome.
This is Project Redshift: Seedship Culture & Structure Documentation
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@All
If Kushiel's Debut ranks as a MUSH that qualifies under Jeshin's rules, then I don't think any other games here have anything to worry about. They should all be listed. KD has nothing special in the ways of automation code on their game that other games do not have. -
Kushiel's Debut isn't ranked yet. When I stopped in at the end of May to check them out again the owner? Skaldia commented that they were considering adding some automated systems due to the influx of players they had experienced. To which I replied, cool, I look forward to that because I'd love to have you on Optional Realities. I had actually reached out to Kushiel's Debut prior to the opening of OR to check with them to see if there was anything that we could point to as an automated system to get them in.
But that being said when I was running through the list that you guys gave me over on my Request thread I found ZombieMUSH. Looked like a good fit, popped on, and Phoenix is nice. We're in the process of getting them listed and hopefully (by the end of the week) they'll be all set! Also chitchatted with Sunny about Smoke to better understand what kind of softcode support they were working on and grid development is a viable form of automation, though I think there'd need to be 1 more in there. I suspect by the end of Smoke that the 2nd form would be added somewhere (just a guess) so I commented that upon release I'd come back around to see what's what. I'm continuing to run through the list from the request thread this week!
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Explain something to me, please, because I'm one of the slower people around here. You propose the OR to be a site to be:
"dedicated to text-based RPGs, not just MUDs, or MOOs, or MUXs, or any of the various sub-genres that we’ve divided ourselves into over the years."
Yet, your words and discussions here have made it sound like you foresee very few MUSH/MUX games actually qualifying as such.
"Our community is for any text-based game that is focused primarily on role-play, has coded support for player activities, and includes permanent character death."
These are your requirements, as pulled directly from the OR site, not discussions here. You write these words as guidelines for inclusion, then you seem to be tightening the limits on the processing part of the application end of things.
So, really, you say one thing, but end up doing another. That, sir, is pretense, and this is (ironically) the historically WRONG place to out yourself as someone of that nature.
But more importantly, you yourself are excluding a large demographic of games that you purport to wish to include. That is self-defeating. Further, it seems that you are doing this out of sheer ignorance, since you are continuing to learn what MUSHes are, given your other thread and your own comments within.
I recommend that, given the feedback that these MUSHers seem to be giving you in resounding shovelfuls, is that you re-evaluate your criteria for listing if you truly want to service the Roleplay-centric community of text-based games. By and large, and correct me anyone if you feel that this statement is off-base, MUSHes tend to be far more roleplay-centric than roleplay-intensive games. We have described to you why we feel that way. We are so roleplay-centric that we do NOT code automation, and leave arbitration to player interaction. If you feel that coded automation is required for listing on your site, then I recommend you reword your article on the purpose of the OR site to state something along the lines.
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I don't think that getting into a who is more roleplay heavy/better is really something that I'll touch. Different strokes for different folks. More automation or no automation isn't a sign of less roleplay or more roleplay It's just a sign of preference and/or game design.
As for qualification I would point out that while (currently) more MUDs do qualify the lions share of them do not. So I wouldn't paint the situation as biased against MUSHes. As to the article statement, I'll have to go double-check the phrasing on that. As to listing vs community (which is why I'll have to double-check that article) let me get back to you on that. I have an idea (thanks to this community) and as with some my ideas it is neither groundbreaking or brilliant. It's just something I hadn't considered before.
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@Jeshin said:
I don't think that getting into a who is more roleplay heavy/better is really something that I'll touch.
I don't think this is his point. Re-quoting:
@Rook said:
So, really, you say one thing, but end up doing another. That, sir, is pretense, and this is (ironically) the historically WRONG place to out yourself as someone of that nature.
He is saying that your statements and actions don't line up, and that this is an inherent problem.
I have largely excused myself from this discussion, since I don't think you intend for anything to come to it, and the above touches on why; part of my head can't help but play marketing buzzword bingo. While I don't think "check your tone" is a good way to say it, I do think that you edge on the disingenuous in asking for input then defending your actions against the responses.
I am not going to get all up in arms about it, tho. You should run your web site to the standards you think are appropriate, and I believe that your responses are genuine from your current position and not malicious.
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@Rook said:
We are so roleplay-centric that we do NOT code automation, and leave arbitration to player interaction.
I was referring to this portion. Roleplay centric is roleplay centric with or without automation. Still thinking about things and will probably hold off replying further until I've made a decision!
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@Jeshin said:
@Rook said:
We are so roleplay-centric that we do NOT code automation, and leave arbitration to player interaction.
I was referring to this portion.
Focus, perhaps, on "code automation", not the "so roleplay-centric", then. Your three criteria requires code automation (which clearly some people don't like) and permadeath (I won't beat that horse).
To be honest, I think you'd do well with clarifying what you want OR to represent, what goal informs the three rules, so Kushiel's Debut might say, "Pff, fine, I don't care about your 'no girls allowed' tree-fort," or whatever.
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This is an awful lot of strenuous effort for something as historically ephemeral as a MU* resource site.
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@Rook said:
By and large, and correct me anyone if you feel that this statement is off-base, MUSHes tend to be far more roleplay-centric than roleplay-intensive games. We are so roleplay-centric that we do NOT code automation, and leave arbitration to player interaction.
This is spot on.
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I would almost say it's a difference between roleplay-intensive and roleplay-exclusive, almost. Like, intensive implies that there are still other things to do besides roleplay, there. That it's not absolute...which is accurate. Mushes do not fall under the category of RPI games. They aren't. They're RPE. If you aren't roleplaying, you are not doing anything that means playing at all.
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@Sunny said:
I would almost say it's a difference between roleplay-intensive and roleplay-exclusive, almost. Like, intensive implies that there are still other things to do besides roleplay, there. That it's not absolute...which is accurate. Mushes do not fall under the category of RPI games. They aren't. They're RPE. If you aren't roleplaying, you are not doing anything that means playing at all.
However, MU*s give you the opportunity to interact with people OOC (for good or for ill) and even to design and run plots. The RPI MUDs I've known remove all OOC communication in the game and even police official forums to prevent people from revealing who their characters are and what they are doing. The claim is that this makes the roll playing more immersive. The reality is that the ban on OOC communication combined with game staff's insistence on keeping all coded elements secret from the players (including XP earned, skill levels, etc.) simply produces constant problems with cheating that is organized outside the game. When I played on SoI, it was IRC "cheating rings"; I'd guess that now it's Skype. The result is that people who want to play by the rules often end up with the short end of the stick.
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So it seems to me that to a Mudder, different Mushes are running different code-bases. Sure, each Mush has the same command set, but on top of that we pile vastly different systems. I can see that to that branch of the hobby that to create a system requires getting into the guts and re-writing and re-compiling the game, thus slowly forking the code-base. For Mushers, we call that "Tuesday".
On the other hand, there are about four nWoD-based stat systems out there (two of them mine, preen preen). This makes for the same code-base but different games.
I thought that was interesting.
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Hey,
So after thinking about the situation for awhile I will likely go and edit the initial article to specify community versus listing. I do not see Optional Realities changing its listing policy at this time as this week alone we've reached out to 2 MUSHes to be added (one of which I'm pretty confident will be on soon). If this leads anyone to question my passion for creating a community for all text-based games (even those that don't qualify for a linkback/subforum) than I'll just have to live with that.
That being said I have made a common error of over-engagement which leads to a lot of repetition of the same point that leaves no one satisfied. My stance is that listed games meet the criteria and any game (or anyone) is welcome to post on the community boards with advertisement or commentary of their choosing. Just like the mods on this forum have allowed me to do.
I will not update this thread unless Optional Realities has content that specifically will interest the MUSH centric community that is here. Likely articles on storytelling or character development (which we have). I apologize if this decision disappoints you or makes me seem as if I have been false in my interest in learning more about the MUSH community. I can only say that I had no ill-intent and wish this community all the best as it has many passionate users.
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They appear to list games that aren't even working, let alone playable. Go figure.
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Which game are you referring to?
EDIT - BPII which has undergone a major code update and adding a zone has had occasional server issues. TSOSmud which is in the process of prepping their codebase for opensource release has also had some server issues over the last week. Both are up as of 1:07 am EST. If it wasn't either of them, please let me know.
