The Great PC Death Dilemma

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

:raises hand:

To be fair to my point, though, you're one in a million.

[Ghost]

Yeah, all of what was said before is what has led me to this "All TTRPGs are RPGs, but not all MUs are TTRPGs" belief.

Really, if MUSHers wanted to play ACTUAL World of Darkness or Dungeons and Dragons, they'd be doing just that. Where it always got difficult with me is that I'd join a World of Darkness MUSH expecting to play the WoD TTRPG with lots of prose and writing, but it's really not that. WoD was never truly intended to handle that level of scope (# of players, spheres, staff, etc) but instead was designed to be a small number of players per GM (or be designed like a LARP with specific rules in mind for larger crowds of people).

TTRPG can be like MU in some places, but at the end of the day the general MUSH simply cannot be a TTRPG.

The general MUSHer wants to write out these stories in open-ended states, hit targets on character romances so they can TS their favorite people or whatever. In 20+ years I've -never- found a MUSH that actually uses the full TTRPG rules -or- includes the kind of story focus that a dedicated gaming group would. It's more about writing these stories with or without the system in mind. Heck, in some cases players join the games with a specific setting and really don't know or care about the setting itself. They just want to write specific stories within the general theme of the setting.

In the end I decided that what I wanted was TTRPG, so that's where I fell on the side of things. I feel like there's something healthy and logical about understanding the difference between "MUSH that uses a dice system" and "TTRPG", where the general culture, approach to dice, use of system, focus of RP are simply different.

[Arkandel]

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

Really, if MUSHers wanted to play ACTUAL World of Darkness or Dungeons and Dragons, they'd be doing just that. Where it always got difficult with me is that I'd join a World of Darkness MUSH expecting to play the WoD TTRPG with lots of prose and writing

Sometimes what system the MU* people join isn't what they're necessarily looking for. It's often simply where their friends are playing - or where people are playing.

For example I know folks who're not into either fantasy or Lords and Ladies, but they've been playing on Arx for a while. It happens to be where their social circle hangs out.

[Ghost]

@Arkandel said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

Really, if MUSHers wanted to play ACTUAL World of Darkness or Dungeons and Dragons, they'd be doing just that. Where it always got difficult with me is that I'd join a World of Darkness MUSH expecting to play the WoD TTRPG with lots of prose and writing

Sometimes what system the MU* people join isn't what they're necessarily looking for. It's often simply where their friends are playing - or where people are playing.

For example I know folks who're not into either fantasy or Lords and Ladies, but they've been playing on Arx for a while. It happens to be where their social circle hangs out.

Yeah. I think one of the major mistakes I made as a Musher was that I'd join these games using WoD, NWoD systems, Star Wars Saga edition, Shadowrun and in my head it was "I'm playing the <system> RPG but there's writing included" and it's really not that, up to and including (Original topic) rules on hitpoints, death, dying, etc.

So hindsight being 20/20 I think my advice to anyone new in the hobby is to say "if what you're REALLY looking for is a tabletop game using those systems, you should check out roll20, Foundry, Fantasy Grounds, Startplaying.games, etc. Don't join and hope it's played like that. It's not."

The approach to pc death/pc churn needs to be approached differently between MU/TT

[faraday]

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

I feel like there's something healthy and logical about understanding the difference between "MUSH that uses a dice system" and "TTRPG", where the general culture, approach to dice, use of system, focus of RP are simply different.

Agree 100%.

In fact, that realization was the ultimate reason why I created FS3. I had spent many years trying to use or adapt various TTRPG systems to MUs, and eventually realized that none of them really fit the MU model that I wanted.

FS3 is not without its flaws, but its core strength is that it was designed for the type of game I wanted to run.

[Livia]

@Arkandel said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

This might just be my perspective but I always believed there were just two major issues with PC death in MU* for most people.

1. Ego.
2. Identity/social loss.

#2 is the big one for me.

Having a character unexpectedly die can basically be the same as Ghost's original idea of having people retire/fade away anyway.

I find it very difficult to play a different character with the same characters as the last one sometimes, where even though my friends are fine and want to RP with me, because I'm a new character they treat me very differently, etc etc. I went through alts like crazy after losing a character once because nothing really captured what I was missing, took lots of breaks, etc. I didn't really want to stop playing, but I was just unable to enjoy playing with the same characters as before.

On the whole I'm like, okay with risk and character death in theory, but I just don't know what to do about some of the social things that come up with it.

[faraday]

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

I'd join these games using WoD, NWoD systems, Star Wars Saga edition, Shadowrun and in my head it was "I'm playing the <system> RPG but there's writing included" and it's really not that, up to and including (Original topic) rules on hitpoints, death, dying, etc.

One thing that's worth noting is that the idea of PC death isn't necessarily a given in TTRPGs either. I've played for entirely too many decades, with numerous groups, across several states and even in Germany, at cons with strangers, etc. - I seriously cannot think off-hand of a single instance where a player lost their character without requesting it. I mean, maybe it happened and I've just forgotten... we are talking a long time span here... but it certainly wasn't pervasive.

Are there groups where it happens? I'm sure there are. My only point is to challenge the underlying idea that just because there's a rule in the game book saying "your PC could die" doesn't mean a given game group is going to play that way.

[Warma Sheen]

@Devrex said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

In my opinion death is just the most boring possible thing you can do to a PC or to their story.

Strong disagree.

Like most things in the hobby, it depends on the player. For bad players, I find a resolution with consequences rather than death to be much more boring if the player completely dismisses the consequences, which bad players inevitably do.

"The NPC I love is gonna die. I'll find someone else to love."
"I'm in a deal I don't want to be caught in. I'll back out."
"I'm being blackmailed. So what."
"I wake up at the bottom of a well. I climb out."

For good players, death is just as interesting as other options. But death is only as interesting for the players around the dead character make it when other characters to feel the death and have it affect them and their stories.

Death usually boring because it is handled in a boring way. Dice roll, character's dead. How many times do you see a player roll into a character death, then it is RPed out in a dramatic way? Rarely. They're just dead. But there's no reason a "dead" character can't be on his way out the door, but hold on long enough to say their peace before they go. Fatal injury too far gone, but not quite so immediate that they can't be dragged back for goodbyes.

The dice can guide the story, but it doesn't have to dictate it. The dice are there to add elements of random chance to direct the story in ways you don't have to decide, not to force your characters into crappy stories. But again, good players and good STs know this already and do as they need to to keep the entertainment high.

Bad players and bad STs just look at the dice and say, "Oh. I died. That's dumb." "Yep. Sux bro."

@Devrex said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

The PCs are supposed to be the heroes of the book, movie, or TV show. We know the MCs just aren't going to randomly die for no reason because of some random dice roll on all our favorite shows.

But MUs aren't TV shows or books. It is its own beast. What other storytelling medium has 134 main characters. The idea that the PCs are all simultaneously the main characters of a MU is unsustainable.

At the end of the day its a game that's only as good as the people involved. Bad players and bad STs will ruin any game no matter how good your policies or preparations are just as good players and good STs can make any game fun no matter how bad the rules or system is.

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

Bad players and bad STs just look at the dice and say, "Oh. I died. That's dumb." "Yep. Sux bro."

I concur. Sadly, few systems tell you how to play through the situation and many players I don't think have the creativity to look beyond the mechanical result.

The dice can guide the story, but it doesn't have to dictate it. The dice are there to add elements of random chance to direct the story in ways you don't have to decide, not to force your characters into crappy stories.

While this is a truism, I think players differ on what is or is not a "crappy story." I mean, people really like the Twilight series, for example.

What other storytelling medium has 134 main characters.

Apparently, the Stranger Things series.

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

What other storytelling medium has 134 main characters.

Apparently, the Stranger Things series.

Very few MUs have 134 main characters participating in the same story at the same time. There are factions, groups, etc. that can sensibly divide things.

It's more like a big franchise like the MCU or One Chicago or CSI where each separate storyline has its MCs and they cross over occasionally.

Honestly, treating every MU PC as a main ensemble TV character has never been a problem for me as a game-runner. Some may get more "air time" than others due to their respective schedules and inclination to get involved in Stuff, but nobody's a supporting character/extra unless they choose to be.

[Ghost]

I will also say...

...that in a lot of TTRPGs, making a new character because your last one died can sometimes be as simple as drawing dots on a gubernatorial ballot. You can literally make a new VtM, Aliens, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, etc character in minutes.

In MUs, however, it can become an absolute pain in the ass that takes days or weeks and is regularly held up by the availability of staffers.

The exception to the rule is that making TTRPG characters for Shadowrun, Traveller, ANYTHING BY PALLADIUM GAMES, Eclipse Phase, and most superhero games (FASERIP, Mutants & Masterminds) is a HORRENDOUS pain in the ass that might be worse than getting a MU character approved.

So there's a big "-1" for death/dying in MUs and a big "-2" for death/dying in some TTRPGs

"Ya lost 10 HP, Steve, so... <dumps pile of Shadowrun books on table>...you get to play again after passing the fucking bar exam."

[faraday]

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

"Ya lost 10 HP, Steve, so... <dumps pile of Shadowrun books on table>...you get to play again after passing the fucking bar exam."

After so many years playing Shadowrun, I feel this so much lol. But you're right that it definitely depends on the game.

Also, TTRPG chars don't require the same degree of backstory/personality generation that most MUs demand. "She's an archer from a small village in the Delaris Mountains" was about as far as my TTRPG chars ever went. So even if the stats are onerous, overall the character creation process is probably not as big a deal in TTRPG.

What you lose with PC death in a TTRPG is progress. Progress towards a character story goal, or all those carefully-planned XP spends. There's generally not as much social capital lost, and it's not like you need to worry you're going to get left out of the story.

It's not better or worse, it's just apples and oranges.

[Derp]

@Ganymede said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

Apparently, the Stranger Things series.

Has everyone forgotten Game of Thrones already?!

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

...you get to play again after passing the fucking bar exam

Actual money says that @Ganymede will tell you the bar exam ain't got shit on trying to remember various RPG systems.

[Ganymede]

@Derp said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

Actual money says that @Ganymede will tell you the bar exam ain't got shit on trying to remember various RPG systems.

The bar exam consists of three parts, two of which are multiple choice, in most jurisdictions. The other part allows you to bullshit your way through a problem to convince the reader that you know how to argue.

Ain't got shit on trying to remember the differences between different D&D editions or dealing with the personalities that yap about them.

[il-volpe]

@Ghost said in The Great PC Death Dilemma:

• Without the "great equalizer" of PC death, player disenfranchisement grows as players will never be able to compete with older characters.

This isn't actually a problem unless plot-runners allow it to be.

A table-top GM may need to find ways to prevent the barbarian from bashing in every locked door before the rogue can have a go at it, and that same GM is doing a poor job of it if it's all straightforward combat all the time and the wizard has naught to do but run away.

And y'know, if it's difficult to come up with in-story complications to achieve this, you do have the option of putting 'This event/plotline is for PCs with n XP or less' on the announcement. I can't possibly count the number of times I've been told some plot that my PC would notice and care about and reasonably be involved in is simply not for me because of 'sphere' distinctions, leaving me to come up with the reason he didn't act. This is fine. I could do the same in keeping my nose out of stuff meant for lower or higher power-levels.