RL Anger
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@HelloProject I appreciate the response. You were civil, which is disappointingly rare these days.
I don't have a heartless view toward others, I just think the government shouldn't be deciding how "generous" I am. I give generously to non-profits, so I don't espouse a "survival of the fittest" libertarianism.
If Sharon refused to sell clothes to men (contra "I sell women's clothing"), would she be in violation of human rights laws? If Amir refuses to bake a cake for a bar mitzvah, is that a violation? I'm not trying to ignore context, I'm trying to find the underlying true principle.
If I've missed the context, as you claim, then I'd love to have it explained. Do it by PM if you prefer and I'll honour that. If I've erred, it's important to me to know where I've made the error.
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@Cupcake I totally agree. Nazi is a term we ought never apply to someone who doesn't deserve it, and that list doesn't include a great many awful people. They're awful, but not Nazis.
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I try not to apply the term "Nazi" too liberally, because I think it lowers the impact. I also think that a lot of people are kind of new to the levels of racism that are currently in the media (even though most of it isn't particularly new). So it's easy to freak out and go "The Nazis are back". This kind of shit has never been particularly abstract to me.
I remember when I was about nine, and I was homeless with my mother and stepdad. We stayed in a shelter in a small town, except it was a town with KKK activity. So I was literally not allowed to go anywhere or play on my own, despite being used to that in the big city I grew up in (Philadelphia). A lot of people in the news, like Richard Spencer, are so fucking many layers removed from the kinds of groups I'm actually afraid of, that to me calling that guy a Nazi mostly shows that, despite everything, the country at large doesn't truly understand how bad things have always been.
People are so new to this kind of shit that what is essentially a rather meh level of racism compared to a lot of the racism in this country, seems as bad as literal Nazis. That's my whole perspective on this.
Now, if you punched Neo Nazis or the KKK, I might think you're onto something. But when you punch actual fucking terrifying groups like that, not some fucking nerd-ass "White Nationalists", you're straight up risking your life. That's why these "White Nationalists" are starting to clash with legitimate fucking white supremacist groups and are getting their asses kicked. These "White Nationalists" themselves don't even realize how racist this country can be, so they think that actual fucking Neo Nazis and KKK aren't going to kick their teeth in when they try to go "Wait we don't want anyone to think we're evil, let's calm down and be reasonable!"
"White Nationalists" and the alt-right are basically internet tough guys and entitled gentrifiers who are now entering into a world they didn't know existed, and I'll be damned if I use a power word like "Nazi" for them. The actual Nazis are kicking their ass.
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@HelloProject said in RL Anger:
I try not to apply the term "Nazi" too liberally, because I think it lowers the impact. I also think that a lot of people are kind of new to the levels of racism that are currently in the media (even though most of it isn't particularly new). So it's easy to freak out and go "The Nazis are back". This kind of shit has never been particularly abstract to me.
I remember when I was about nine, and I was homeless with my mother and stepdad. We stayed in a shelter in a small town, except it was a town with KKK activity. So I was literally not allowed to go anywhere or play on my own, despite being used to that in the big city I grew up in (Philadelphia). A lot of people in the news, like Richard Spencer, are so fucking many layers removed from the kinds of groups I'm actually afraid of, that to me calling that guy a Nazi mostly shows that, despite everything, the country at large doesn't truly understand how bad things have always been.
People are so new to this kind of shit that what is essentially a rather meh level of racism compared to a lot of the racism in this country, seems as bad as literal Nazis. That's my whole perspective on this.
Now, if you punched Neo Nazis or the KKK, I might think you're onto something. But when you punch actual fucking terrifying groups like that, not some fucking nerd-ass "White Nationalists", you're straight up risking your life. That's why these "White Nationalists" are starting to clash with legitimate fucking white supremacist groups and are getting their asses kicked. These "White Nationalists" themselves don't even realize how racist this country can be, so they think that actual fucking Neo Nazis and KKK aren't going to kick their teeth in when they try to go "Wait we don't want anyone to think we're evil, let's calm down and be reasonable!"
"White Nationalists" and the alt-right are basically internet tough guys and entitled gentrifiers who are now entering into a world they didn't know existed, and I'll be damned if I use a power word like "Nazi" for them. The actual Nazis are kicking their ass.
If you fly the Swastika as a flag, you're a Nazi. if you don't, you can still be just as awful a person: white supremacist, racist, genocidal,fascist. Nazi, specifically, refers to a particular political party with right-wing, nationalistic, authoritarian politics in favor of racial cleansing and racial superiority. If we're being especially technical about it, it also denotes that they have to have the backing of the monetary powers within the territory they operate in, since that's what the actual Nazis had in Germany and was an integral part of their politics and infrastructure as a political war machine.
That said, I don't believe that 'Nazi' is a power word. I believe that Nazi had a specific meaning and that we're perfectly capable of understanding the nuance of what we mean when we say 'that person is a Nazi', even if they aren't flying the Swastika. If I call an alt-right persona Nazi, it's pretty clear why, and how the analogy relates.
This is much different than, for example, the term 'feminazi' which just banks on "joking" hyperbole by attributing something truly heinous (fascism) to a movement that is the opposite (feminism).
So on the one hand, yeah--most people that are being called a Nazi are, perhaps, not technically Nazis.
On the other hand, everyone knows why they're being called that and making a sticking point out of it just makes me roll my eyes hard enough that I can see my synapses firing.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@dontpanda said in RL Anger:
If Sharon refused to sell clothes to men (contra "I sell women's clothing"), would she be in violation of human rights laws?
Legally, yes. Be careful when you use the term "human rights laws," however. The laws at issue are anti-discrimination public accommodation laws. Very, very different.
If Amir refuses to bake a cake for a bar mitzvah, is that a violation?
It depends because religion is a thorny thing. Most anti-discrimination laws provide an exception for sincerely-held religious beliefs. There may be a genuine religious belief not to bake a cake for a bar mitzvah; I can't say I know Amir's religion well-enough to comment.
What I can say is that Colorado's state laws, under which Mullins v. Masterpiece Cakeshop was decided, do not have such an exception. So, no, you cannot refuse to bake a wedding cake because the couple is gay, if you conduct business in Colorado. And especially in light of the Obergefell v. Hodges decision.
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@dontpanda said in RL Anger:
If Sharon refused to sell clothes to men (contra "I sell women's clothing"), would she be in violation of human rights laws? If Amir refuses to bake a cake for a bar mitzvah, is that a violation? I'm not trying to ignore context, I'm trying to find the underlying true principle.
I would actually like to focus on this, since this seems like the heart of what you're asking.
What you're saying seems to be "where do we draw the line", and/or that it's possibly a slippery slope. However, I think the line is pretty clear when you compare contexts against each other.
If Sharon specifically sells a particular type of clothing, that's not the same as refusing to sell clothes to men. There are also men's outlets that only sell men's clothing, but that isn't a refusal to sell clothes to women. I know that it was only an example, but I just wanted to note that specializing in something is not the same as rejecting something.
No business is necessarily obligated to provide a product or service that they do not have.
That said, if Sharon is selling women's clothing and someone off-handedly says "Oh, I'm buying this for a bar mitzvah", and then Sharon goes, "Oh, I can't sell you those clothes then", that's discrimination.
I know that you think people should have the right to decide anything that they want, and then go onto another business, but this ignores historical contexts. You know, like when a ridiculous number of stores start discriminating against people and, considering that most businesses are owned by a particular demographic, you leave large portions of the population at the mercy of something that they have no control over.
Are you aware that there are many, many areas in America where people have no access to buying basic food, and have a ton of difficulty actually acquiring their food? And they are definitely not even remotely in a position to open their own business or save up to open a business. Hell, in these areas, there are often literally no jobs, not jobs they don't want, but literally none. This is not a special case or a minority of places, this is a huge problem in the country.
So, let's say that someone in one of these areas has to walk like ten miles just to buy groceries, and the one store within walking distance of them, because of the neighborhood it's in, is like, "Oh, sorry, we don't sell to you". Discrimination laws are more than just "personal preference", a lot of ideologies try to dismiss things as personal preference so that they don't have to think about how fucked up the country actually is, due to a lot of people living in bubbles where they can blissfully ignore these problems.
There is also a huge difference between "I don't want to make you a Nazi cake", and "I refuse to make a gay marriage cake". I feel like I don't need to go into detail about why these are two wildly different things, and that the reason the law differentiates between them is because we somehow have avoided becoming a Judge Dredd-like dystopia in which the law works soullessly and mindlessly, without rhyme or reason. I like to think that most people use the law in a critically thought manner, which is why it isn't applied equally, and never will be. People are not machines and we as a society are capable of applying critical thought and basic empathy to figure out why one similar situation is different from another, without worrying about highly unlikely slippery slopes.
If anything, I find that a lot of the law hinges on not being a dick. If you look at situations and can't figure out why one thing seems reasonable to the law, and the other one doesn't, then ask yourself "Which of these people was being a dick?"
And I'm sure you might be asking yourself, "Who decides who is being a dick?" Look at all the fiction we've had throughout history. I think we as a species are capable of deciding who is being a dick. If we side with the dick then it probably means we're also being a bit of a dick.
@Coin I very much believe that "Nazi" is a power word. Once you start calling someone a Nazi, you've put them and their entire movement onto a pedestal that is considered one of the greatest historical evils in modern history. So, yeah, calling someone a Nazi is definitely a thing that has an impact. I also understand the nuances and what people mean when they call someone a Nazi in a non-literal way, but I don't believe that erases the actual impact.
I just personally believe that these entitled motherfuckers Nazis, we conflate their dumb bullshit with being as literally bad as all the shit actual Nazis did. Then the next thing you know we're taken totally off-guard when Neo Nazis are fucking curb stomping us and shit, because we got used to a certain level of civilty from these assholes we decided to call Nazis but weren't.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but I just am very careful about how much power I give something. Putting anyone or anything onto a pedestal is always dangerous, even if it's a negative pedestal. Making people seem less human empowers them in our eyes, because then we become unable to see them as a solvable problem. That's how we end up resorting to violence first and they just end up seeming more sympathetic as a result, which reaffirms our beliefs that they're unstoppable when more people sympathize with or join them, even if it was our actions that triggered it. We just say things like "it was inevitable and there was nothing we could do about it".
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@HelloProject On the other hand, what you see as giving them too much weight can also be taken as having enough prescience to recognize something as what it could become, and acting like it.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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I'm over here having a heart attack from not surprised. It's very normal for the Arab countries to refuse to acknowledge Israel in any way. It's particularly notable during the Summer Olympics.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical -
Also who thought this was a good idea? I mean aside from the concept itself being stupid, who approved of that poster alone with that tagline? Come on, people.
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Last Friday, I gave in to the migraines (well, I was at a point of just sort of lying there in and out of consciousness so it was kind of... necessary) and went to urgent care. Got the toradol injection.
It wore off on Monday. Yesterday I had a mild... well, fairly sure it was a seizure. Just took it easy through the day. Had a hydrocodone so I could relax enough to sleep.
I can't afford to go to ER/Urgent Care on a regular basis. That's $50 a visit. And I'd be going twice a week just to manage. But my neurologist is still hella insistent that the Trokendi is totally gonna work. Except it hasn't. It's working even less now that I'm up to 150mg. Like it was kinda sorta helping maybe a little at 100mg and now at 150, I'm worse.
While I was waiting the month and a half to get in to see him, I already tried shopping around for another neurologist and couldn't find any who were taking patients, so I don't know what the shit to do.
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I've been reading over the last several pages of replies and it rekindled in me the anger I feel over movie theaters. As I'm known to do while browsing movies on my AppleTv or cable box and find movies that I can Pre-Order... why are movie theaters even a thing anymore? If I can watch own a movie for $14 and watch it from my comfy couch with surround sound and a 3D or whatever else... what's the point of the theatre?
How come these have not gone the way of the drive in movie (yes I know some are around but they are now a novelty).
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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@ThatOneDude said in RL Anger:
How come these have not gone the way of the drive in movie (yes I know some are around but they are now a novelty).
There is no substitute for watching Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 on a screen that is roughly double the size of my house's walls in a comfy chair away from my children.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ThatOneDude said in RL Anger:
How come these have not gone the way of the drive in movie (yes I know some are around but they are now a novelty).
There is no substitute for watching Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 on a screen that is roughly double the size of my house's walls in a comfy chair away from my children.
Not all of us can afford surround sound. Or have a nice TV.
Or want, like Gany said, a night away from kids.
If, for some reason, I want to see 3D, IMAX 3D is the only one I can see without intense migraines (or was, prior to this current migraine misery I'm experiencing).
There's plenty of reasons for theaters.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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The kids can be sent away for less...
IDK, maybe California is different with the high ticket price plus price of concessions and then huge crowds equals >.<
Sending kids to a friend/relative/parents night out ... priceless?
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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@Auspice True. And while I have a good TV and whatnot, I still prefer the movie theatre for many reasons - for starters it's a social experience. I'm going out with someone else, maybe having supper first and not just sitting in my own living room which is what I do anyway most nights.
The other reason is I like being part of an audience. For all the occasional idiots with cellphones and talking loudly can do, it still feels more intense. The energy on that opening night of The Force Awakens was awesome, I loved it. It wouldn't have been the same at home.
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@ThatOneDude said in RL Anger:
Sending kids to a friend/relative/parents night out ... priceless?
Correct.
Really, I go for the experience. I like theatres. I like being there. It's sort of like concerts; why go see a group live when you can just download their music from iTunes?
Given that I have a Firestick, I really don't have to go out to watch a good, in-theatre movie. I still do because my partner demands it.
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If, for some reason, I want to see 3D, IMAX 3D is the only one I can see without intense migraines (or was, prior to this current migraine misery I'm experiencing).
...holy crap, I thought I was the only person this happens to. (I had always thought it would be worse, but it's so much less evil for some reason.)
Oh fucking well.
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@ThatOneDude said in RL Anger:
price of concessions
Who doesn't smuggle in candy and water anymore?
I will also cite "the experience" for why I like theatres. I don't have the same philosophical conversations after watching a movie at a friends house that I do after watching a movie; having the ushers wanting to throw you out because you're just sitting there talking about it is half the movie experience to me.
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I rarely go to the movies unless I'm invited and someone's like "My treat", because I don't really have money to spend on movies right now.
Though occasionally there's something really big where I try to go out of my way to see it, like the upcoming Spider-Man and Black Panther.
