Aug 31, 2015, 8:42 PM
Hey, if there's a demographic for anything, there's one for that. 
Drinking and fucking all day? That sounds horrible!
ShadowRun 5E ... 2050
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Hey, if there's a demographic for anything, there's one for that.
Drinking and fucking all day? That sounds horrible!
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@Arkandel said:
Hey, if there's a demographic for anything, there's one for that.
Drinking and fucking all day? That sounds horrible!
The height of the human condition.
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@Arkandel said:
Hint: I wasn't commenting on the censored version but the actual one.
If she censored her post, then clarify that, jeeze.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said:
If she censored her post, then clarify that, jeeze.
We often miscommunicate so I'll try to make it as clear as I can. She didn't censor her post, you did. This is what I was referring to:
@Thenomain said:
I dunno, @Arkandel, I rearranged her response in my head to, "Yeah, imma do it my way, thanks", and left the attack/defense nature of her response, and your response to her response, as leftovers from some tone earlier in the thread. It's not like she told you that your responses were laughable.
What I was saying is that you beautified someone's post in your head to defend them but in doing so you took out the parts I was objecting to.
Anyway, I'm not attacking the OP here (or it's not my intention). People post ideas for games I 'don't agree with' all the time, and it's no skin off either their backs or mine. What I'm arguing is that by opening game design debate to an open forum one will see recommendations which don't align with their own ideas. If they can't handle disagreement offered in a more or less constructive manner (which @HelloRaptor's were, at least in my opinion) then they can expect that fact to be pointed out. As it was.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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I'm mostly surprised at the hostility to coded tools and automation. At the end of the day they are tools and are there to help people. It seems a lot of MUSHes these days put way to much stock in the idea that "Oh the players will do it themselves." I think human nature itself and the plethora of failed games that have relied on that maxim have shown that is faulty thinking when it comes to this hobby. Sometimes the players need a push. Sometimes it comes from Wall-E and not Bob the Builder Wizard. The two games I had the most fun on, RP wise, had coded tools that generated content and conflict for the player base and kept staff involvement to a minimum.
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@Arkandel said:
Hey, if there's a demographic for anything, there's one for that.
Drinking and fucking all day? That sounds horrible!
Damn I miss college and that was mostly only the drinking part of the equation.
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@Arkandel said:
What I was saying is that you beautified someone's post in your head to defend them but in doing so you took out the parts I was objecting to.
That she was being firm and frustrated in in the face of people openly laughing at the thread? Being antagonistic about someone being antagonistic never works. I should know. Beautifying what she said turns a slap-fight into a conversation. I am an optimist.
Contrast:
@JDCorley said:
It's all good, if you've got it all figured out, you don't need anyone's help. I promise you your staff will burn out and with no other means to introduce content your playerbase will devolve into just drinking and fucking - nothing wrong with that, of course - but if you don't believe my promise, you can definitely get right to proving me a fool. I hope that you do. :bowtie:
+1.
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@Arkandel Oh you!
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@FiranSurvivor said:
I'm mostly surprised at the hostility to coded tools and automation. At the end of the day they are tools and are there to help people. It seems a lot of MUSHes these days put way to much stock in the idea that "Oh the players will do it themselves." I think human nature itself and the plethora of failed games that have relied on that maxim have shown that is faulty thinking when it comes to this hobby. Sometimes the players need a push. Sometimes it comes from Wall-E and not Bob the Builder Wizard. The two games I had the most fun on, RP wise, had coded tools that generated content and conflict for the player base and kept staff involvement to a minimum.
There wasn't any hostility to coded tools and automation, you are writing tone into what was just a response saying: No.
I wasn't being a bitch, I was saying 'My game, my vision, my way.'
I don't know HOW many posts where people have said: Running a MU* is not a democracy, the HeadWiz needs a clear vision and they need to stick with it and yet now I am some kind of baby who is being aggressive by clearly saying 'No' in a firm tone to some random guy I don't even know who has made predictions of doom and gloom because I am not doing things his way?
No, I don't think so.
If people want to pretend that I was being hostile to those 'suggestions' then more power to them I guess. Here's me being hostile, for future reference (clears throat):
@FiranSurvivor That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, why would I want to spend the time and waste my hours coding something that SEGMENTED the games players from each others further by allowing coded runs that they could go on BY THEMSELVES?! Why would I want to turn it into a MUD that is all about coded combats and encounters when I am using MUX code and the idea is to tell a story not provide people ways to wack their e-pud to how bad ass they can design a character into doing EVERYTHING they need to do to replace a whole team and EVERYONE ON THE WHOLE GAME?! That is the stupidest idea I have ever heard of! Clearly my MUSH is going to FAIL because I'm not turning a MUX into a MUD. OHMERGERD! Grow the Eff Up.
Get real, The only butthurt I am seeing wasn't from me. I was basically just saying No. Nobody likes it, but it doesn't mean it's hostility.
Also:
@Arkandel ... Really?
Just because I post on a discussion board doesn't mean I can't respond that I'm not going to take random joe #336's idea to heart and change my whole game because of it. Think about it. Just for a little. I wasn't killing discussion I was saying no.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@Lithium said:
People will come together and make ShadowRunning Teams /without/ staff involvement.
Without staff forcing, perhaps, but providing tools to make this easier would be super awesome. Since there is that lifepath system, we could maybe include an option of like... 'on X team' where you get benefits! Not forcing... players can be lone runners if they choose. But the choice is on them.
If you want to go on Runs, then wait for someone to run one. Or run one for someone else. Or wait for staff to run one you can get involved in.
Denver's Plot Lever is an example of a thing for this. It doesn't actually do the plot for you, but it randomly generates things to at least provide the initial creative spark for people.
Be proactive and don't expect /anything/ to be fed to you on a silver spoon.
Can it be fed via potato canon?
EDIT: And if /anyone/ ever manages to hoard enough money they don't need to go on runs anymore? Congratulations! You've made it off the streets and out of the life. Not many runners get that far! You've done it! Throw a party! Retire the character since clearly they're not a runner anymore.
Some folks run for other reasons. Some folks, like those on WoD places, want to play the cops, while others want to be involved with the crime sphere. I'm not advocating people being CEOs, but there is the Day Job flaw... and the rank perk!
I was also going somewhere with some people wanting to play more suppot roles... cyberdoc/surgeon, fixer, mechanic, enchanter... but I lost it somewhere. Basically, it was 'some people prefer less punk in their shadowrun'... which is cool, and why mixing all of the things together is fun.
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@Jennkryst said:
@Lithium said:
People will come together and make ShadowRunning Teams /without/ staff involvement.
Without staff forcing, perhaps, but providing tools to make this easier would be super awesome. Since there is that lifepath system, we could maybe include an option of like... 'on X team' where you get benefits! Not forcing... players can be lone runners if they choose. But the choice is on them.
If you want to go on Runs, then wait for someone to run one. Or run one for someone else. Or wait for staff to run one you can get involved in.
Denver's Plot Lever is an example of a thing for this. It doesn't actually do the plot for you, but it randomly generates things to at least provide the initial creative spark for people.
Be proactive and don't expect /anything/ to be fed to you on a silver spoon.
Can it be fed via potato canon?
EDIT: And if /anyone/ ever manages to hoard enough money they don't need to go on runs anymore? Congratulations! You've made it off the streets and out of the life. Not many runners get that far! You've done it! Throw a party! Retire the character since clearly they're not a runner anymore.
Some folks run for other reasons. Some folks, like those on WoD places, want to play the cops, while others want to be involved with the crime sphere. I'm not advocating people being CEOs, but there is the Day Job flaw... and the rank perk!
I was also going somewhere with some people wanting to play more suppot roles... cyberdoc/surgeon, fixer, mechanic, enchanter... but I lost it somewhere. Basically, it was 'some people prefer less punk in their shadowrun'... which is cool, and why mixing all of the things together is fun.
sighs I never once said I would have no tools to /assist/ people in making teams. I just said I am not putting in a system that forces people to have contact with other PC's whom they do not even know the player of OOCly, don't know if the time zones are going to work, or if they even /want/ to RP with that person at all.
facepalms
As for people playing non-runners... I could have /sworn/ I talked about wanting people to play gangers, and mafia, and yakuza, and everything else. In fact I could have sworn I was going to make playing those types of characters even easier than playing a Runner because I wanted lots of people to play them to help bring the world (and the game) to life.
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@Lithium said:
@Arkandel ... Really?
Just because I post on a discussion board doesn't mean I can't respond that I'm not going to take random joe #336's idea to heart and change my whole game because of it. Think about it. Just for a little. I wasn't killing discussion I was saying no.
Absolutely really!
You're under no obligation to agree or use anyone else's idea over your own approach. What I pointed out is your very obvious growing frustration at people volunteering such ideas, and seem to interpret them as challenges.
What I'm saying is you'll need to be far thicker skinned than that if you want to not be continuously upset here since throwing suggestions at things from different angles is pretty much all we do. Some of those are better than others and not all are offered as courteously, but that's the price you pay for discussion.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Lithium Sorry, knee-jerk reaction on my part about the teams. Most of what I've seen is solo-chargen, and places where staff ignores backgrounds because reading takes time/effort, and if it not being on the sheet, it's useless. (to be fair, some of the not-on-sheet-stuff at the time was rediculous) (EDIT: Not that I'm accusing you of not reading stuff. Just... I have been told, on more than one occasion, 'That background is too long, write it shorter' on a game that tells me to write a story, not a bullet-point history... and then these staffers blindly approve people who say they're Tir Royalty (not me, because ew, dandelions), but then get annoyed when the player tries to use this on-grid)
I don't want to be that person, and this is going to make me sound like I am, so sorry... but while you didn't say there would be none, you also didn't say there would be. My suggesting it was more a way to clarify if it would be a thing. I'm a fan of 'more is better'... all of the information on the table that way.
It's like if you're a teacher, and you tell people to take notes, I'm just over here like... 'DO I WRITE IT ON PAPER, OR JUST ABSORB THESE NOTES THROUGH OSMOSIS?' Writing on paper is intuitive to you, but I'm a moron over here.
As for the Mafia and Yakuza... I'm curious if the 'everything else' you mention includes... a detective agency, or a security firm, somewhere between mom-and-pop level and Rating B Corporation (I should dig out the corporate handbook to see if B is the actual thing that I mean), who have all manner of legal permits for stuff. Or a person who works for DocWagon? Or Lonestar. Or Hard Corps. Or GOD. Or any number of government agencies. I ask as though they are currently on payroll (day job flaw!), rather than formerly employed.
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@Arkandel said:
@Lithium said:
@Arkandel ... Really?
Just because I post on a discussion board doesn't mean I can't respond that I'm not going to take random joe #336's idea to heart and change my whole game because of it. Think about it. Just for a little. I wasn't killing discussion I was saying no.
Absolutely really!
You're under no obligation to agree or use anyone else's idea over your own approach. What I pointed out is your very obvious growing frustration at people volunteering such ideas, and seem to interpret them as challenges.
What I'm saying is you'll need to be far thicker skinned than that if you want to not be continuously upset here since throwing suggestions at things from different angles is pretty much all we do. Some of those are better than others and not all are offered as courteously, but that's the price you pay for discussion.
Eh. Text can be a frustrating medium. I am actually not bent out of shape at all I just tend to write aggressively at times. It can be easily construed because I have a somewhat aggressive personality. Which means I am driven! I take it as a good thing because I'm to old and stuck in my ways to change it.
I typically don't let people I don't even know have enough power over me to make me angry, but, I admit it does seem a bit like a virtual slap in the face when someone just comes in and goes 'No you are wrong about everything you are going to FAIL!' which makes me immediately throw them into rubbish bin and just shut it down before it invites more of the same and we get another derailment.
@Jennkryst said:
@Lithium Sorry, knee-jerk reaction on my part about the teams. Most of what I've seen is solo-chargen, and places where staff ignores backgrounds because reading, and if it not being on the sheet, it's useless. (to be fair, some of the not-on-sheet-stuff at the time was rediculous)
I don't want to be that person, and this is going to make me sound like I am, so sorry... but while you didn't say there would be none, you also didn't say there would be. My suggesting it was more a way to clarify if it would be a thing. I'm a fan of 'more is better'... all of the information on the table that way.
It's like if you're a teacher, and you tell people to take notes, I'm just over here like... 'DO I WRITE IT ON PAPER, OR JUST ABSORB THESE NOTES THROUGH OSMOSIS?' Writing on paper is intuitive to you, but I'm a moron over here.
As for the Mafia and Yakuza... I'm curious if the 'everything else' you mention includes... a detective agency, or a security firm, somewhere between mom-and-pop level and Rating B Corporation (I should dig out the corporate handbook to see if B is the actual thing that I mean), who have all manner of legal permits for stuff. Or a person who works for DocWagon? Or Lonestar. Or Hard Corps. Or GOD. Or any number of government agencies. I ask as though they are currently on payroll (day job flaw!), rather than formerly employed.
I understand. I also haven't been able to write everything, because it's not all done yet. I am still coding this thing up and doing data entry, there's a TON of fucking data entry, my god. And because of the way I am changing the lifepath system it means everything has to be more than re-worded...
I've been doing this since 1992 (Wheel of Time RPMUD's and AmberMUSH were my dinosaur days). I've participated and staffed on a wide variety of games since then, so I've got a LOT of ideas, and a LOT of things I am going to implement, but there's things I'd like to do that I can't, because I'm not a psychocoder.
In the end it'll be what it will be, and hopefully (All I can really try and do) it will be a ShadowRun game that people enjoy playing on and have fun with other people who enjoy ShadowRun.
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@Lithium said:
@FiranSurvivor That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, why would I want to spend the time and waste my hours coding something that SEGMENTED the games players from each others further by allowing coded runs that they could go on BY THEMSELVES?! Why would I want to turn it into a MUD that is all about coded combats and encounters when I am using MUX code and the idea is to tell a story not provide people ways to wack their e-pud to how bad ass they can design a character into doing EVERYTHING they need to do to replace a whole team and EVERYONE ON THE WHOLE GAME?! That is the stupidest idea I have ever heard of! Clearly my MUSH is going to FAIL because I'm not turning a MUX into a MUD. OHMERGERD! Grow the Eff Up.
Get real, The only butthurt I am seeing wasn't from me. I was basically just saying No. Nobody likes it, but it doesn't mean it's hostility.
I don't think you know what the word hostility means.
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@Lithium said:
I'm /not/ going to force people to have a connection to other people who they don't even know, don't know if they're even compatible time wise, rp wise, or even /like/ each other OOCly or ICly.
I'm confused. I didn't see anyone suggest this, but EITHER WAY, even if they had, I would have to say....Okay, seems fine. The fact that you're suggesting that shadow runners shouldn't team up really speaks more to a misunderstanding of Shadow running theme than anything else. They don't have to know each other, they get put on the job together because they're getting paid to work together. End of story.
@Lithium said:
People will come together and make ShadowRunning Teams /without/ staff involvement. There doesn't need to be /coded runs/ this is not a mud. It's not a moo. It's not a muck. It's a MUX. I'm most definitely not going to code up some automated run creation system where /1/ person could go on some simulated run all on their little lonesome.
You keep saying this thing. I do not think you understand this thing.
If you want to go on Runs, then wait for someone to run one. Or run one for someone else. Or wait for staff to run one you can get involved in.
Lithium says, as if STing for shadowrun is somehow easy.
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Re: teams and plots. Difficulty of creating a plot (in Shadowrun or in general) is why you want to have players on teams. Lithium is saying that players will not be forced onto teams; they can be lone runners hired as needed, OR they can form teams on their own. Whichever. Solo runs are achievable, but irk me unreasonably.
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@Alzie said:
@Lithium said:
I'm /not/ going to force people to have a connection to other people who they don't even know, don't know if they're even compatible time wise, rp wise, or even /like/ each other OOCly or ICly.
I'm confused. I didn't see anyone suggest this, but EITHER WAY, even if they had, I would have to say....Okay, seems fine. The fact that you're suggesting that shadow runners shouldn't team up really speaks more to a misunderstanding of Shadow running theme than anything else. They don't have to know each other, they get put on the job together because they're getting paid to work together. End of story.
It was suggested, that I do such a thing. That when people make a character, they are automatically making connections to other people who are already on game, automagically, through the creation process.
@Alzie said:
@Lithium said:
People will come together and make ShadowRunning Teams /without/ staff involvement. There doesn't need to be /coded runs/ this is not a mud. It's not a moo. It's not a muck. It's a MUX. I'm most definitely not going to code up some automated run creation system where /1/ person could go on some simulated run all on their little lonesome.
You keep saying this thing. I do not think you understand this thing.
I do understand, actually. I don't think you understand, possibly due to not reading the post I am referencing.
@Alzie said:
If you want to go on Runs, then wait for someone to run one. Or run one for someone else. Or wait for staff to run one you can get involved in.
Lithium says, as if STing for shadowrun is somehow easy.
It's not hard. It's no more involved than running a scene for any other crunchy system which we all have done over the years. I have ran scene's on Seattle, Denver, and Detroit. I've also ran scenes and plots for old and nWoD, for RIFT's (Now /that/ is way more annoying than SR), and Amber, and Pern, and Dungeons & Dragons 3rd and 4th edition on various MU*'s.
I wouldn't call ShadowRun exactly difficult to run for.
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@FiranSurvivor said:
@Lithium said:
@FiranSurvivor That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, why would I want to spend the time and waste my hours coding something that SEGMENTED the games players from each others further by allowing coded runs that they could go on BY THEMSELVES?! Why would I want to turn it into a MUD that is all about coded combats and encounters when I am using MUX code and the idea is to tell a story not provide people ways to wack their e-pud to how bad ass they can design a character into doing EVERYTHING they need to do to replace a whole team and EVERYONE ON THE WHOLE GAME?! That is the stupidest idea I have ever heard of! Clearly my MUSH is going to FAIL because I'm not turning a MUX into a MUD. OHMERGERD! Grow the Eff Up.
Get real, The only butthurt I am seeing wasn't from me. I was basically just saying No. Nobody likes it, but it doesn't mean it's hostility.
I don't think you know what the word hostility means.
I guess you missed the line directly over that point you tried to take out of context where I made abundantly clear, I was about to be hostile.
We really need a way to ignore posts by other people...
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Lithium says, as if STing for shadowrun is somehow easy.
Maybe it is just me but I don't see how runnign for ShadowRun is any more difficult then running for anything else?
Now running things in general online is a pain in the ass, but more so for scheeduling then the actual scenes.