Dom/Sub imbalance on MUSHes

[surreality]

It'd be pretty easy to kill somebody by doing the emergency drinking straw tracheotomy(sp?) we've seen in dozens of movies and TV shows, too, but there's no outcry about the depiction of it in media -- unlike there sometimes is about horror and kink or sex. (And that has the additional downside of being considered 'heroic' and 'helpful', too, thus potentially inclining an even greater number of people to potentially try it.)

It is important to remember that Soveriegn is an outlier -- and an outlier by a considerable margin. The comparisons that have been cropping up are as unhelpful as they are a bit ridiculous. Calling him our localized Hitler wouldn't be too far off base, though I'm loathe to do so because it's entertainingly likely he'd be immensely flattered by the comparison and insist that it means he's just that charismatic.

People who post seeking this kind of RP (from either end) are not looking for RL partners to try this out with. That's where the critical difference lies here: Sovereign was, even if it was presumably limited to online interactions, which it may or may not have been; this is very different from 'fictional people do good/bad/neutral things that may or may not reflect reality'. Whatever 'people take things to heart' or 'people get attached' may go on in the course of play, very few players lose cognizance of the simple fact that: this is role-play and it is not real, even if it stirs some real feels along the way at some point.

[Apos]

@Lithium Like I get that the RP being done comes across as reinforcing abusive and negative stereotypes that you find problematic, and I can even understand being offended by that, but since it's consensual adults having fun then I'd would just make a point of trying to show positive versions that you like that are illustrative of how are things done right in your opinion.

I honestly don't have a strong opinion about this since I know nothing about D/s and that is probably never going to change, but if I see character concepts or RP I find distasteful I just avoid it or see if people would be down for RP from another angle that might reinforce positive things that they'd find fun. If it's really from a position of not knowing at all about something, they might even appreciate it as long as it's done in a respectful and entertaining way. Just can't come across as elitist or condemning even if it's something I don't much care for.

[Lithium]

@surreality To say that this hobby never leads to RL encounters is laughable. Seriously, it's kind of crazy how many people are trying to rail against me on this. I'm not telling anyone they can't do something or can't RP whatever they want to RP.

I've said my piece on it, I'm done talking about that tangent, which I already apologized for.

Feel free to rp anything to your hearts content and @Pyrephox thanks for showing everyone just how /stupid/ people can be, and how entertainment can definitely lead to RL tragedy even if you didn't mean to support what I was saying.

[Groth]

@Lithium said:

EDIT: Either way, I apologize for the derail to the tangent subject. I still think it's as was said before by @Ganymede more a passivity than a 'submissive' thing, due to lazyness and an unwillingness to go out and create RP. Reacting instead of acting.

I don't think one should confuse liking to take a more subservient role with being lazy or unwilling to create RP. Most of the Submissive/Subservient/Reactive players I've met are really hard workers when it comes to making sure RP happens, in terms of hosting events, contacting people, setting scenes etc. It's just that they want things to happen /to/ their character rather then necessarily do things themselves.

Meanwhile I'm one of the worst procrastinators in the greater MU* community and I've lately found myself taking the 'active' role merely because I enjoy making other characters react to what I do.

[Lithium]

@Groth Your experience is different than mine, but I haven't played WoD in /years/ now which seems to draw more of those types of 'relationships' than other genre's I've found.

[surreality]

@Lithium I don't disagree that it's a possibility, so I'll ask you to quote what you're getting that impression from -- as right now you're arguing against something I've not said. People in this community have gotten married, which is well known on the boards here, after all.

Thing is, there's a possibility that someone may think dragons are out there. Or that they can drink blood and gain supernatural powers. People in the really real world think you can cure AIDS by having sex with a virgin -- people genuinely believe some impressively stupid things and take action based on those beliefs every day.

There is literally nothing out there this does not apply to in some fashion if you slide far enough down the slippery slope.

"Someone might" is not reasonable cause to insist "anyone who does anything to inspire someone to maybe someday" on any of these subjects.

There are also a lot of assumptions going on here about what people know, and what people don't. The glaring horror shows of doing it wrong are going to stand out for obvious reasons, but they do that in any given subject area. I've run across quite a few knowledgeable people in this hobby in this particular subject; they just tend not to advertise. They don't hide it, but they don't throw up the neon sign, either, and as a result, they're quite easy to miss.

Sovereign was not looking for characters to interact with his character. He was, explicitly stated, looking for players to exploit. That was his intention. There was no slope, no 'maybe feels may evolve', that was the deliberate intent behind being there in the first place. The difference is pretty huge.

[mietze]

No, but you are saying that anything people RP should be construed as them condoning it or supporting it in RL. That is the sentiment I strongly object to. Because someone seeks out or is untroubled by other people exploring themes such as abuse, violence, ostracization, loss of humanity/family or what have you in fiction and "play" in no way means they condone or wish to lure others into experiencing it in RL.

D/s is no more special than any of that other stuff. And yes, people will get it "wrong". I have to bite my lip a lot of times at all the extremely abused child grows up into a sparkly adult with no adaptive behaviors except they like to be spanked by daddy/mommy before they're fucked and tickled with feather bgs I've had to read over the years. Or the portrayal of well adjusted beautiful streetwalkers. Or people with 2 sets of twins and triplets that still have the time and energy to go do their secret supernatural underworld duties too.

Those people are not condoning the idea that a childhood of molestation and neglect is something that everyone can overcome by tightening their bootstraps. They are not condoning child neglect. They are not condoning human trafficking as a benign form of sexual empowerment. Most people when confronted with that stuff RL would have appropriate reactions to it.

People whose idea of ghoul play involves slapping around and sexual dominance play or treating the ghoul as an unequal member of that society do not act that way RL by and large. Are there some, yes, but dollars to donuts they were like that before they ever mushed and probably on a mush they're likely to also meet people who have gotten out and can offer real btdt support vs looking down on them for RPing whatever it is they're playing.

I helped put my rapist/abuser behind bars. I don't particularly care for RPing out forceful holding against ones will explicitly because of that experience. But that is me, and my unique reaction, and if someone rps that stuff because it's a fantasy and they have no clue, if I believed in God I would get down on my knees and praise it because that person is just enjoying a fantasy and like a normal person does not know nor want to experience it RL. And if it is someone who has btdt or come close, if that is how they process or it doesn't bug them, then more power to them and I feel no need to trample them on my high horse and call them an abuse advocate, any more that they should think it would be okay to tell me that if I wasn't such a big coward then I wouldn't be reluctant to play it.

Rp and fiction can be escapist, it can be educational, it can be exploratory in a way that talking about RL cannot, it can be pushing the boundaries or just trying something on for shits and giggles without someone actually taking a bat/fist to you. Whether that is getting to play the vigilante who kills the bad guy the cops can't get, stealing from the man, literally blowing that slow driver out of the left lane, putting on a sex show at a club, being the cop/social worker who actually does get to be the hero and rescue people using their super powers/making a great roll and being one step ahead of the action the ST has planned--whatever.

Mushing can be a reflection of RL. It is not RL. And what people play is not what they condone or even believe is right/correct/good. Nor should it be, unless they wish to play that, IMO.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said:

People who post seeking this kind of RP (from either end) are not looking for RL partners to try this out with.

I would not be surprised, however, that the people posting for such RP will presume that the behavior of their VR Dom is par for what an RL Dom would be. That presumption may or may not be unreasonable, depending on how intelligent the person seeking RP is.

That's why I think @Lithium is alerting folks to this. Few people understand a realistic D/S relationship, and to attempt to portray it in this medium -- which is a far-cry more interactive than watching or reading 50 Shades of Grey -- may be inadvertently and unintentionally damaging to people who are involved in an RL D/S relationship. As an analogy, think of how a gay man may be concerned with PCs mincing and fellating in public on a game.

It's worth discussing, and even debating.

[surreality]

@Ganymede It isn't unreasonable, but I see it as no different or more dangerous than people pretending to be a doctor, as per the example we see in media all the time that was used before. If some random guy tries that in the flesh, it's probably not going to go well.

We sometimes rail about these portrayals, too, but somehow, we seem to understand it isn't a crisis waiting to happen in the same way.

[Groth]

@Ganymede said:

As an analogy, think of how a gay man may be concerned with PCs mincing and fellating in public on a game.

It's worth discussing, and even debating.

I learned a new word today thanks to this thread.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said:

It isn't unreasonable, but I see it as no different or more dangerous than people pretending to be a doctor, as per the example we see in media all the time that was used before.

The difference is that, generally, people have a good opinion of a doctor: they heal people; they are intelligent; and they are helpful. I can't say the same for Doms or lawyers.

[Lithium]

@mietze said:

No, but you are saying that anything people RP should be construed as them condoning it or supporting it in RL.

No I have not ever. Not once, in this whole thing did I ever say I wasn't condoning it. I was saying /I WISHED PEOPLE WERE EDUCATED AS TO HOW IT REALLY IS BEFORE BUTCHERING IT IN RP/.

That's it. Period. Quit trying to make me say shit I am not, it's boring, it's old, it's a straw man, and it's full of shit. The defenses of this style of RP are the /same thing/ as other offensive people have done, so I called out on that too. Then came the strawman attacks.

I've never said anything other than it could be damaging, and I wish people were educated, so as to create a /better/ RP experience for all and I am attacked, non-stop, by bullshit like this.

P.S. Everyone take a drink.

EDIT: Your story, while all heart wrenching and everything else (I too have been through similar situations, except the rapist in my case never even got fucking /prosecuted/) but NONE of that has any bearing on ANYTHING I have been saying. Go pull the fucking strings of peoples hearts where it's actually fucking relevant.

[Apos]

Okay man, if you can't see how people got upset by comparing their opinions to @Sovereign, dunno what to tell you.

[Lithium]

@Apos

If you don't understand how the 'It is just roleplay, it is just a game' defense doesn't upset people, then I dunno what to tell you either.

[Groth]

@Lithium said:

@Apos

If you don't understand how the 'It is just roleplay, it is just a game' defense doesn't upset people, then I dunno what to tell you either.

Did you read anything @Sovereign wrote? He isn't part of the MU* community to play the games, he only rarely does actual RP. He's part of the MU* community because he has found it a convenient place to find damaged women that he can practise his favourite mind games with and his defence of that is not 'It's just a game' it's 'They're adults and can make their own decisions'.

[Lithium]

@Groth Yes I did, and the 'They are adults and can make their own decisions' defense WAS USED in this thread in response to one of my posts.

[surreality]

@Lithium That's about 'choosing to roleplay something' in this context, though -- and us not micro-policing their roleplay choices. Not 'it's entirely on them to protect themselves from my mind games and deliberate emotional personal player-level exploitation', which was Sovereign's angle.

[Apos]

@Lithium said:

@Apos

If you don't understand how the 'It is just roleplay, it is just a game' defense doesn't upset people, then I dunno what to tell you either.

My last reply on this same page said I already understood how you could be offended by a negative stereotype you saw being roleplayed poorly. Doesn't mean I agree with you at all. I think your reaction is unhelpful and coming from being offended emotionally and wanting people to stop without putting any thought into it how you could be positive or constructive.

[Lithium]

Gods above and below... I have never in my life seen so much vitriol against education in my life. It's like people are content to swim in the muck with the bottom feeders throwing feces and make believe instead of just have a discussion.

Think what you want. Down vote me all you want. But don't put words in my mouth. Don't try and make me say I said things I didn't.

RP whatever you want. I've said it before. I'll say it again.

@surreality Yes, @Sovereign used those techniques on people to try and do RL predation. If it only happens virtually, because someone doesn't /know any better/ how does that make it good?

@Apos You don't know me. The only thing I am offended about is people putting words in my mouth so to speak and making me out to be some great villain for something I never said or implied.

@mietze Fine, you win. Just like Ghost. You win the internets. Tell @Pyrephox he also wins.

You have won the internetz. You have beaten me.

I'm tired of even attempting to get through to people anymore.

Everyone drink or whatever.

[surreality]

@Lithium said:

Gods above and below... I have never in my life seen so much vitriol against education in my life. It's like people are content to swim in the muck with the bottom feeders throwing feces and make believe instead of just have a discussion.

Statements like this are, I suspect, where what you may be attempting to communicate is failing miserably.

I'm quite educated on this subject, thank you very much, and encourage others to educate themselves as well if they have an interest in exploring these subjects in the real world. (Which essentially makes me just want to tell you to go fuck yourself, but that's not what I'm doing.)

People roleplaying something, and players consciously engaging in RL exchanges around a theme are not the same thing, and no amount of 'but it all centers around <theme>' is going to make them the same. Many themes can and do entail similar visceral or emotional reactions from players in the same way, from wanting to have a child to rape scenarios to simple lovey-dovey dating fluff. (And yes, I have actually run across a player on a game who wanted nothing more than to find a girlfriend there with which he could have a child -- these things happen.)