As we keep being brought up in this thread, guess that's an invitation to contribute.

@auspice said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

If you get the permission of the IP holder (in this case, GRRM / the show creators), they'll gladly let you use the game rules provided you don't claim to own any of it, etc etc... I think the issue more comes back to them being afraid of the IP owner circling back on them, since they only have permission to create the game rules.

This is in accord with our understanding from Chris Pramas, whom we've conversed with on occasion. To quote him:

As you are no doubt aware, the rights for A Song of Ice and Fire are sliced up into many pieces. We have no electronic rights at all; those belong to other companies. We could not license our game out for any kind of software treatment. Properties like Mutants & Masterminds that we own outright are different. We made a deal with the Storium people to support Freedom City, for example.

@thenomain said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

and keeping Nym entirely out of the loop.

Just underscoring that this is quite correct. There's no reason at all put Linda and I "in the loop" in the first place if you're asking George's permission. It's his bailiwick.

@packrat said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

'People' in this context being Nymeria

This is incorrect. Posted this on this very forum:

The one thing a lot of them (GRRM included) cite which I think is the wrong thing to take out of the Bradley situation, though, is the idea that if they do not actively police the use of their copyright, they can "lose" it. But this is an idea taken from trademark law which doesn't apply to copyright. A more accurate thing to say is that there have been cases where the court has seemed to feel that a person being aware of unauthorized use of their IP and allowing it to continue could largely forfeit any hopes of receiving punitive damages if they changed their mind about it at a later date.

@il-volpe said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

He's said that he /wanted/ them made for his IPs.

I assume "them" is MU*s. Got a link? Could be something to add to the SSM!

@ZombieGenesis IMO, if your game is a private game with just a handful of invited characters, and you're basically using the MUX framework as a virtual table top kind of thing, I don't think you really need permission. I'm not sure what "semi-private" would be in the context of a MUX, but if it's more public than private, I would think that asking George's permission would be the appropriate thing to do, given his expressed wishes on such things. (Also, if you got George's permission, it sounds like GR would be okay with the use of SIFRP in such a scenario, too.)

Definitely agree with sticking to one or maybe two areas. It's appealing to be able to have large chunks of Westeros available to play in, but Westeros is too damned big to really support it unless you've a very large player base (which doesn't seem compatible with a private/semi-private game). As far as custom houses go, in a small game, I wouldn't see a problem. But you may find some or most of the invited players prefer to stick to what they know, which tends to be the Great Houses. I guess the benefit of a private game is you can discuss this with folks beforehand and see what they want.

As far as canon and time period goes, the Blackfyre rebellions certainly offer a lot of space for political play on larger and smaller scales. I'd pick the run-up or aftermath of the 3rd rebellion myself, because it's so lightly sketched (for now, anyways) and means you've a wide latitude both with filling in the blanks of the start conditions (who supported what side, etc.) and just easily going off in your own direction if that proves of interest to your players. Obviously, a "what if" version of the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion could also be a thing. Though I'd go further back than the usual point, picking up from Aegon V's death and the immediate aftermath of his having legitimized all of his bastards. Seems like it'd be ripe for intrigues and conflicts.

Blood of Dragons is set in the low-magic, medieval-inspired fantasy world of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire (and HBO's Game of Thrones, though the game is strictly based on book canon). The game is the only MUSH operated with the approval of George R.R. Martin, together with whom the game's owners also co-authored The World of Ice and Fire.

Current/Upcoming: We are fast approaching the end of Baelor's reign. Now's the time to join us to experience what that will mean!

The game takes place 130 years prior to the start of the first book, "A Game of Thrones". King Baelor I Targaryen still sits the Iron Throne, but since the birth of his sister Daena's illegitimate child and her refusal to name its father, he does little more than praying and fasting to atone for her sin. In Dorne, Prince Marence -- who never recovered fully from being poisoned -- has abdicted in favour of his son, Prince Maron. He is as of yet unwed and speculations are mounting regarding what kind of alliance he will make, after seeing his sister married to Prince Daeron.

This choice of time period allows players to explore a less defined period in the history of Westeros while still experiencing how past events referenced in the books may have played out. The roleplay is focused on the political and social interactions at the courts of King's Landing and Sunspear, with players taking up characters from various noble households. Players have a choice between CGing a character themselves or taking up a previously played, fully pre-generated role. Choose the latter option and you can often be ready to roleplay within minutes.

Blood of Dragons is focused on offering high-quality roleplay in a rich, immersive setting with a strong sense of history and continuity. A key ambition of the game is to stay as true as possible to the world-building of George R.R. Martin and in doing so offering an authentic experience of Westeros in the time of the Targaryen kings.

Address: bod.westeros.org: 3000
Guest Client: http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Portal
Webpage: http://www.westeros.org/BoD/
Forum: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/16-blood-of-dragons-mush/

The Influence part of the system of Blood of Dragons works by having each player come out of CharGen with a base Influence score, created through a formula that looks at House, certain Assets and Flaws and official positions. Influence can be spent on the Rumor system (influenced by code from Sanguinis Nobilis) and also gained or lost through targetted positive or negative rumors, but this only affects the current score, not the base score, and over time Influence gradually returns to the base score. Changes in status, such as a marriage or a new position, is the only way to permanently alter the base score. Influence can also help a character in gaining a better than expected marriage or a new position as Staff takes it into consideration when approving such requests.

By having the base score be the equilibrium that Influence strives to return to over time, there's no possibility of players colluding to use rumors to completely destroy someone's position permanently; that would actually take the character suffering a permanent change in status, such as losing their place at court or being disinherited.

@Gingerlily You're welcome. I think we could probably have done more early on to make it plain to people how the system works (in fact, we're working on something related to that right now), but the rumor system is one of our favourite pieces of code. As I noted, we can't take credit for the basic idea, its heavily inspired by what Sanguinis Nobilis used, but it worked quite well to integrate into a fantasy setting with politics as well.

I do think that having an equilibrium that Influence strives to return to reduces the risk of the system being abused, as massive changes can't happen simply through players ganging up on someone else via the code; the changes have to be reflected in actual position changes.

@Gingerlily I found the original Sanguinis Nobilis code for their rumor system -- they posted it long ago on a now-defunct FTP site, but fortunately we saved it. It may give you some ideas for approaches:

The code: http://pastie.org/10451992
The help file: http://pastie.org/10451995

@Gingerlily As far as the rumor portion of it goes, one of the features that have been discussed is the fact that if someone successfully investigates a rumor -- finding the person who actually started it -- then suddenly everyone who has heard the rumor will also know the identity. It's been argued that this takes a lever of power from the successful investigator, since they can hold over the person's head the fact that they know but are willing to keep that to themselves.

Not quite had the time to think through how to fix the code to allow this. Obviously the idea would be that a successful investigator would have some way to share their knowledge in a code-verifiable way (like +rumor/share then also sharing the identity), and also perhaps provide them some method to readily make the identity more widely known. Though now that I think of it, the way to make the identity widely known would be to start a fresh rumor implicating the person in what ever gossip they were spreading... maybe not so tough to sort out after all.

The fact that we have permission from GRRM to run our own game does not mean that we have any right to shut down games who wrongfully use his IP, nor have we ever attempted to. The only one who can do that is GRRM and he does not want to spend his time chasing down "fans" who disregard the fact that he has said that he does not want games run without his permission.

Likely this confusion over whether we have tried to shut down any other ASoIaF/GoT games arises from the fact that we do not allow any discussion of such games on our game, any more than we allow discussion of or links to fan fiction.

@ZombieGenesis All I can say is that neither myself nor Nymeria have ever approached anyone working on another ASoIaF/GoT game. I cannot say with 100% certainty that some of our staff might not have done so, but if so it was done without our knowledge or approval. I must admit to being very dubious, especially given the claim that the staffer invited the other game to bring their ideas over to our game, as all of our staff knows that we would never consider such a scenario. We're rather set in our ways and have always had a very specific vision for our game.

@il-volpe said:

But I wish they'd stop pretending that GRRM forbids all MUSHes but theirs.

Our position is and has always been that, based on GRRM's statements to us and others, he is opposed to games being run without permission from him. One example of such a statement can be found in this chat log from Otherspace, where he stated this when informed about a Windhaven MUD:

"George says, "Hmmpf... I wish they had asked permission, at least, the way Elio and Linda did before beginning their Seven Kingdoms MUSH."

If someone asks him and obtains permission, then all is well. If they do not, our policy is the same as it is on fan-fiction: we feel it is disrespectful to GRRM's wishes and under no circumstances do we allow it to be discussed or referenced anywhere on Westeros.org.

As far as we are aware, we remain the only MU* with GRRM's permission. Our FAQ quotes the relevant emails, including one where he notes that when others asked him for permission, he'd direct them to our game as the only authorized one. For those who feel like we do about respecting an author's wishes, we feel it is important information to give when we advertise the game.

@il-volpe said:

@Balerion said:

But the gaming stuff? It arouses ire because it's hostile to the gaming community. BoD appears to use it to attempt to force players who are interested in the world to have no choice but to play BoD, or be shamed, told they're disrespecting a beloved author if they play elsewhere.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, GRRM did make it plain that he does not like people running on-line, fan-run games (such as MU*s) without his permission. Trying to argue that he must have changed his mind since then feels quite self-serving to me, a way of avoiding feeling as if you are doing something of which he disapproves.

Indeed. But the idea that he approves table-top games, but for MUSHes it's a case-by-case basis is weird. Sure, being consulted is nice when you have the time for it, but saying he condemns those he has not been consulted about, well, it once again implies either idiocy or a failure to understand that a MUSH is a role-playing game, like any other.

How is that weird? He sold the table-top rights to a specific company. Any issues with how the table-top game is being used would fall to the table-top company to deal with. Since he has not sold the MUSH rights, it is not strange that his approval would remain a case-by-case matter when it comes to such games.

It may be a game like any other, but he has sold several different licenses for different types of games, so it is not as if all game licenses are just treated as a single entity.

As for yours, it fails to answer the real question: Does he recognize that a MUSH is fundamentally similar to the table-top games which he does approve, and that, consequently, the player-GM relationship is fundamental to the game being worth playing, and if so does he really want to force all MU* gamers to play with you guys or not at all?

I am quite sure he recognises that it is similar. However, it is not a matter of him wanting to force anyone to do anything, it is a matter of what he is comfortable with and respecting that. We had to provide quite a lot of reassurances regarding how we would treat his property before he gave his approval. From our interactions with him in this matter, he would like to know who it is who runs a game based on his IP and how they are doing it. Indeed, since you bring up the game licenses he has sold, he initially took a lot of interest in making sure the material stayed as true as possible to his setting. These days, he does not have the time for it, but he has knowledgeable assistants that handle this for him.

Yep. Some of that clearly had to do with him not being entirely clear on what a MUSH really is. Though at the time, it was also far more relevant -- issues of rights exclusivity were still in play. Now, not at all.

I am not sure how this comment is relevant all? Rights exclusivity have not been discussed in any way in regards to MU*s, only in regards to other types of games, and again, each type of game is different as far as licenses are concerned.

The issue being discussed is approval and the fact that, yes, GRRM wants people to obtain approval for him before running a game (that does not fall under any of the licenses he has sold; those games can of course be used in whatever way their licenses allow). Again, trying to pretend otherwise just to not have to feel bad about going against his wishes is self-serving and nothing else.

As it stands, we are the only authorized MU*, and we feel that is very relevant information to provide for those who care about such things.

@Rook The desc (as with most of ours) is posted on our personal website: http://www.hippoiathanatoi.com/Virtually/Characters/Entry/Angharad

The ad on the first page has been tweaked to reflect that we're now less than a month away from the end of King Baelor's reign, which eventually will lead to some significant changes to the nature of the court at King's Landing.

@magee101 Technically, everyone on our game is a roster character, but yes, a pre-CGed character is what I recommend largely based on what you said, that you've only a passing familiarity with the setting, but also because they're an easy way to dive into the game and seeing if it's for you. If you decide you want to CG your own character after trying it out, well, by all means.

@magee101 said in Blood of Dragons:

@balerion If you dont know anything about GRRM's works aside from dragons and politics, how accessible is BoD?

Our general recommendation in this case is that you play a previously CGed character, ideally one who'll be based in King's Landing, as those areas are the most "typical" fantasy-medieval (Dorne is a bit more "Arabian Nights"). There's plenty of information on the web, on wikis such as ours and our articles for the game and so on. We've just entered the final year of the reign of King Baelor the Blessed, and the wiki article there will give you a sense of what things are like in his reign.

@misadventure said in Blood of Dragons:

Adding a spin to @magee101 's question:

How well would you do if you have a reasonable grasp of fictional medieval politics and low fantasy settings?

I think you could do pretty well! As I noted above, this is the last year of Baelor's reign -- he's become increasingly driven by religious visions and overzealous piety -- so that's one source of tensions and friction. His young cousin Prince Daeron just got married to a princess of the rival kingdom of Dorne as part of Baelor's efforts to make peace, and so that's another source of potential friction. There's room for people to advance at court, and we've created a court structure that tries to divy up court positions in various areas, and give a hierarchy people can aim for. (There's a similar file for the court in Sunspear, as well.)

Ad refreshed to reflect the current IC circumstances on the game.

As we keep being brought up in this thread, guess that's an invitation to contribute.

@auspice said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

If you get the permission of the IP holder (in this case, GRRM / the show creators), they'll gladly let you use the game rules provided you don't claim to own any of it, etc etc... I think the issue more comes back to them being afraid of the IP owner circling back on them, since they only have permission to create the game rules.

This is in accord with our understanding from Chris Pramas, whom we've conversed with on occasion. To quote him:

As you are no doubt aware, the rights for A Song of Ice and Fire are sliced up into many pieces. We have no electronic rights at all; those belong to other companies. We could not license our game out for any kind of software treatment. Properties like Mutants & Masterminds that we own outright are different. We made a deal with the Storium people to support Freedom City, for example.

@thenomain said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

and keeping Nym entirely out of the loop.

Just underscoring that this is quite correct. There's no reason at all put Linda and I "in the loop" in the first place if you're asking George's permission. It's his bailiwick.

@packrat said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

'People' in this context being Nymeria

This is incorrect. Posted this on this very forum:

The one thing a lot of them (GRRM included) cite which I think is the wrong thing to take out of the Bradley situation, though, is the idea that if they do not actively police the use of their copyright, they can "lose" it. But this is an idea taken from trademark law which doesn't apply to copyright. A more accurate thing to say is that there have been cases where the court has seemed to feel that a person being aware of unauthorized use of their IP and allowing it to continue could largely forfeit any hopes of receiving punitive damages if they changed their mind about it at a later date.

@il-volpe said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:

He's said that he /wanted/ them made for his IPs.

I assume "them" is MU*s. Got a link? Could be something to add to the SSM!

@ZombieGenesis IMO, if your game is a private game with just a handful of invited characters, and you're basically using the MUX framework as a virtual table top kind of thing, I don't think you really need permission. I'm not sure what "semi-private" would be in the context of a MUX, but if it's more public than private, I would think that asking George's permission would be the appropriate thing to do, given his expressed wishes on such things. (Also, if you got George's permission, it sounds like GR would be okay with the use of SIFRP in such a scenario, too.)

Definitely agree with sticking to one or maybe two areas. It's appealing to be able to have large chunks of Westeros available to play in, but Westeros is too damned big to really support it unless you've a very large player base (which doesn't seem compatible with a private/semi-private game). As far as custom houses go, in a small game, I wouldn't see a problem. But you may find some or most of the invited players prefer to stick to what they know, which tends to be the Great Houses. I guess the benefit of a private game is you can discuss this with folks beforehand and see what they want.

As far as canon and time period goes, the Blackfyre rebellions certainly offer a lot of space for political play on larger and smaller scales. I'd pick the run-up or aftermath of the 3rd rebellion myself, because it's so lightly sketched (for now, anyways) and means you've a wide latitude both with filling in the blanks of the start conditions (who supported what side, etc.) and just easily going off in your own direction if that proves of interest to your players. Obviously, a "what if" version of the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion could also be a thing. Though I'd go further back than the usual point, picking up from Aegon V's death and the immediate aftermath of his having legitimized all of his bastards. Seems like it'd be ripe for intrigues and conflicts.

@deadculture I would say it is primarily due to a lack of time and coding experience on my part. I have copious notes and ideas for the system, but have never found the time or energy to devote myself to it. But we don't see a conflict between having combat code and being consent based. By participating in fighting, you do consent to some damage, though yes, you won't be killed or maimed against your will. Elendor was rather harsher in that regard as you had no say in what happened if you were knocked down to 0 health.

The 1-10 scale for skills on Cuendillar was the original, home made system. Some years after Tales of Ta'veren shut down, Nynaeve implemented the CharGen and skill system from Tales of Ta'veren instead of continuing with the old system. I believe the ToT system was based on Ars Magica.

No, that was never the case, at least not for all types of characters. The ad used to say that knowledge of the books is helpful but not required, except for certain concepts. So the revised language is in fact somewhat more restrictive in that suggests that familiarity with the books is best, especially for those who want to CG characters. The same limits as before apply in regards to specific concepts definitely requiring book knowledge, but the details get somewhat lengthy for an ad.

There's two components, Influence and Renown, and the basics are detailed in http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Helpfiles/Category:System::Renown and http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Helpfiles/Category:System::Influence.

Additionally, +help cdb status on the game lists the available commands for showing current rankings and modifiers. There's still some work to be done to transition from our old system, but the core is in place.

Updated the ad in the first post as it had some outdated plot and policy information. We're now trying to steer those who have not read the books almost entirely to pre-CGed characters, though we don't mind making an exception if someone is willing to do their research. We've also finally launched the new Status system to help invigorate the court politics.

@ZombieGenesis All I can say is that neither myself nor Nymeria have ever approached anyone working on another ASoIaF/GoT game. I cannot say with 100% certainty that some of our staff might not have done so, but if so it was done without our knowledge or approval. I must admit to being very dubious, especially given the claim that the staffer invited the other game to bring their ideas over to our game, as all of our staff knows that we would never consider such a scenario. We're rather set in our ways and have always had a very specific vision for our game.