Posts made by crusader

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@crusader You may actually want to take a step back, man. You're starting to sound pretty frothy over the whole thing... and you're kind of making an ass of yourself in the process. @Sunny's original post was mildly inflammatory at best, and her responses have been pretty mild as well. You're the one that's getting all up in arms and making deragatory or caustic remarks regarding her interests or herself.

Well, now I'm going to have to get a cappuccino on my way to work. Frothy sounds delicious.

To move onto a slightly different topic:

In one of our tabletop games, with the 'owod veteran' group of players, we did a highly Dog Soldiers influenced version of a campaign. (They were a Blackwater-esque team in the Middle East) If I can dig it up, I might post the intro materials I used to that game, and the character creation instructions I gave players. Consisting mostly of people I grew up gaming with, the group was much more rules/combat wonky than your typical crew. This was the first campaign I ever took Dalu/Urshul away from them. (It was also the first WoD game we'd run in a while, though we had a years long owod werewolf focused campaign in the past). If I can't find it, I'll try and recreate the instructions I gave to the best of my memory.

They were basically Ghost Wolves, without access to Dalu/Urshul. Also, we never got into the existence of organized tribes or lodges (though it was vaguely alluded to). The Shadow etc, still existed. Spirits still played a big role.

The absence of Dalu/Urshul turned what could have been a kill fest, Fomori-esque First Team game (which we've also done before) into a surprisingly restrained and controlled descent into the horror of war and cultural isolation.

One of the players, who was always incredibly twinky, and always built combat monsters, got wrecked when he went death rage and accidentally slaughtered a Pashtun family that had been sheltering/hiding him, while separated from the others. It happened, because he'd been forced to go gauru in order to fight off some attackers who'd discovered him. In games past, he'd have shifted into Dalu/Glabrus or hispo/urshul, inflicted Lunacy, and ripped them to shreds without any significant risk at losing control. He was more affected by it than I'd ever seen him before. He's the kind of a player that when growing up, if his character lost an arm, he'd shrug and replace it with a buzz saw or such. This really floored him.

Ironically, that campaign (I haven't actually done a Forsaken chronicle since with those players, as I've moved away), remains the least combat-focused and the most introspective we ever had. The group I storytell for now, which has more girls, has a much different dynamic. None of them grew up playing owod.

@Ganymede said:

a bunch of stuff

Fair enough, Gany. You've made some good points, and cleared up some things. I do place a great deal of importance on a game being understood and grasped by the most casual denominator, because that's who I've had to deal with the most in spheres and tabletops. Allowing for that, we're actually not far apart.

That said. I still don't quite get the crack at my authority, knowledge or expertise. Because it's not rocket science, and it doesn't actually require any deep insight, to read the game's own introduction and theme on chapter, and realize that the whole Spirit/Shadow aspect is just one of five or six major themes and it's actually the last one introduced.

It's perfectly within my expertise, to point to that evidence, and say that others, who by their own admission do not like werewolf much and probably haven't read the 2.0 pdf, are incorrect in placing such a great importance on the Shadow as the end-all and be-all of the werewolf experience...To be fire and drinking blood to a vampire, or ghosts to a geist.

For example:

Blood-drinking and ghosts, are given pride of place in the Vampire and Geist intros and thematic chapters. The source influences and inspirational media are absolutely chock full of blood-drinking and ghosts. The Shadow/Spirits is barely mentioned in werewolf's intro, and doesn't appear at all in its source influences or media.

I don't see where I'm overreaching. I guess if someone put the Shadow on a pedestal, above all other themes, I could be perceived as overreaching. But then I'd be right in saying they probably didn't read the original author's own take.

And again, most spirit aspects of werewolf are handwaved or coded out anyways, without people batting an eye. (Essence regaining, Loci management, gift learning, etc). So I guess I find its ardent defense a bit disingenuous.

I can't conceive of anyone putting more effort into a sphere than AQ, without making it a full time job. You're right that he didn't delegate, but there really wasn't anyone he could delegate to, that could maintain his extremely intricate vision. He must've put thousands of hours into that sphere. That's just not realistically sustainable. And even he could barely acknowledge which packs had which loci or totem spirit.

People need to be realistic with themselves and ask a few key questions.

How many scenes have you run where a spirit had to be tracked down to be taught gifts? How many scenes have you run where a werewolf had to perform the ritual to go track down a spirit animal and eat it for essence? How many times have you involved a pack's totem spirit? How many times have you run a plot about maintaining a loci? How many times have you done something that going by the rules, would have required a Harmony or Morality check, but you ignored it? How many times has a staffer had you make one that felt unfair?

I could go on. Virtually all of this, absent that one special exception I'm sure someone is dying to share, gets handwaved or ignored on a mush.

On the Reach, gifts, Essence and Loci are all automated more or less (and poorly at that). There's no spirit interaction. No totem spirit has ever meant anything. So Theno for example, is pretty hypocritical to defend a system that is such a pain in the ass to keep track of, that his code more or less ignores them. Essence on the Reach is basically infinite. You can have whatever gift you request.

If all this stuff gets handwaved or ignored, how important can it be? Forsaken 2.0 scales back the Shadow to where the majority of wolves never enter it. It's not a sacrilege to scale it back even further into the realm of legend.

If you don't like werewolf, don't storytell werewolf, and you don't play werewolf, then fine. Although, I find your presence in the thread perplexing. Much of these issues won't matter. But I would really want those that do to be honest with themselves.

I would contend that if you only want a boring retread of the owod experience, where you kill formori/claimed and pain spirits/banes, while spending most of your time in dalu or urshul, or whatever, then you should do yourself a service and just play owod where the cosmology and the umbra is done much better. At least there, you can stay in crinos, instead of using dalu/urshul as a substitute crinos.

If you want to actually explore werewolf in a nwod setting, with nwod themes, then I think my fixes - while not right for everyone - is a good step in the right direction.

I'm surprised more attention hasn't been given to the Dalu/Urshul removal. Which is another owod holdover.

It's refreshing when the Man to Wolf-Man dynamic is more powerfully emphasized. The game's whole setting and feel becomes much more dramatic, when you have to time when to throw the 'kill switch' and go Eight-Feet-Killing-Machine. It more starkly highlights the theme of self-control, as mentioned above. It made several players genuinely fearful of giving into violent solutions, given what might happen if they accidentally went berserk. Combat, when it happened, became much more exciting.

How is that more shallow?

@Ganymede said:

Frankly, I don't think any of your "flaws" are, in fact, "flaws." They appear to be aspects of the game that you think are either unnecessary or irrelevant to the style of game that you want to run. Unlike many others I can accept that, but like many others I probably won't be playing with you. I would probably find your setting/game/theme shallow.

I think you have badly misunderstood a few key points.

1. It's not my authority. I wrote the themes nearly verbatim from the book itself. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. If you don't like those themes...fine. But they're at least as equal in importance to the Shadow, which people here claim to love.

2. While you might find it emotionally cathartic to believe otherwise, I have nowhere claimed that any other way of interpreting the game is less acceptable or valid. I have only defended what I find acceptable and valid.

3. I've already acknowledged that the title could use improving. It was done in a slap dash fashion. I'm not perfect. There's no need to keep retreading it.

4. What I took issue with, was the barrage of comments that it was in violation to the 'spirit' (no pun intended) of the game. By way of response, I've fallen back on the authority of the original authors, as to which themes they gave pride of place, to show that is not the case. The people who seem to have the biggest trouble with this, are those that have pontificated the most, while later admitting 'they don't even like werewolf' and have probably never even read the theme section of the pdf.

5. In the end, werewolf is more than any one theme. It's a constellation of themes. The pseudo Native American cosmology aspect of it is just one theme, and it's the very last theme they introduced. It's just one layer of the setting.

6. So please, scale back some of the high and mighty tone about authority, or what rights I have to declare good fun or bad fun. I'm not making any such claims.

7. My only 'claim', is that Werewolf 2.0, stripped of the Shadow component, makes it even less like owod werewolf, and more in line with other nwod themes of horror and the human condition. That's why I found Theno's comment that it would be more combatty to be ludicrous, since the Shadow only exists to provide an owod-type avenue of mega battles against various monsters, like Claimed/Fomori, or beshilu/banes.

8. What makes a setting, game or theme 'shallow', isn't something so ridiculous as to whether or not the Shadow or spirits are involved, or what the tribes are called. It's how the story is told. I'm surprised you of all people, can't acknowledge this. My greatest beef with the Shadow is that it's handled in such a shallow manner by so many people, and of which there is really no way around without expecting an unrealistic level of familiarity with the subject matter from all players.

9. A story is hurt when not all of the players are on the same page in understanding its very various elements. Whatever idealized opinion people have of nwod werewolf, the fact is, most every nwod werewolf sphere has sucked, and been anything like what the original writers could have intended.

10. Totem spirit demands, loci maintenance, and gaining gifts from spirits has always been ignored and handwaved (95% of the time) so how central can they be?

In any case, I've made no secret of the fact that I've chosen to de-emphasize one aspect of Werewolf's theme, to better emphasize three or four others. That's all it really amounts to. And I haven't made any pretense otherwise. There's no need to make up straw men that hold some extreme argument that makes for an easy target, which I don't even adhere to.

At the end of the day, the only nwod werewolf sphere I've seen semi-competently run, was AQ's when Haunted Memories first started, and it almost killed him. I've never seen anyone since put in even half the effort to fully engage with and tackle the subject matter. There's clearly too much there for the average MUSHer to cope with or keep in their mind.

@ThatGuyThere said:

I have a question, wouldn't it by definition be not a Forsaken game? the actual term Forsaken comes form the whole murdering Father wolf thing. With out hte Shadow and spirits just way would they be known as the Forsaken?

Probably not.

But it's worth keeping in mind, that the authors devoted pride of place, to what I listed above, and didn't get into why Forsaken are called Forsaken, until quite a ways in.

In the end, if we have New World of Darkness, Werewolf and Forsaken on the table, and you had to prioritize one over the other, I would order them as New World of Darkness -> Werewolf -> Forsaken.

I'm not saying my way is the only right way.

I'm just saying it's perfectly keeping in line with New World of Darkness and Werewolf concepts, even if it ditches much of the Forsaken cosmology, or further de-emphasizes it into a mythical/legendary realm.

@Sunny said:

So, for clarity's sake 'tiny zebra' and 'rabid moon monkey' are ridiculous in terms of being insults. Taking them seriously...I suggest you take a deep breath, man. I don't actually think you're a zebra or a rabid monkey, let alone a tiny one or a moon one. Relax. My posts are not worth getting worked up over.

Now you're just being facetious. But honestly, I'm not even sure you know what you're doing at this stage. I have no more interest in you, until you come up with something relevant to say, at some point..

I didn't jump into a random thread about a random unrelated subject to subject you to a page-long diatribe about your RL communication skills...coming from a thread where you were playing the role of the furious minority opinion defender.

You should stop projecting onto me.

If you want to keep this going, send me a private message. I'll entertain it as best I can.

@Sunny said:

No, what you're asking for is not a courtesy. First of all, the thread in question is not mine, nor does it have anything to do with me save that I was participating in the discussion. That I disagree is not actually a personal attack, no matter how many times you say it is.

Removing what you're proposing to remove with this takes away a significant amount of what makes up the 'the Forsaken' part of the Werewolf game. I maintain that what you're looking to play is actually done better in another system. That's not an insult, it is an expression of my opinion. I would be perfectly happy with #4 and #5, because changing them doesn't change what I feel are core concepts of the game.

You've now said this, three or four times.

Unlike you, or most people in this thread, I've listed verbatim what the authors of Forsaken 2.0 write in the introduction as the most fundamental themes and most relevant media. Nowhere is pseudo Native American cosmology given pride of place. Not even in the media section.

In that sense, I think my fixes bring the game more firmly in line with the writer's own stated aims and themes, and ditches more of the owod cosmology. The flaw, is them lacking the courage to take their paring back of tribes and shadow more than halfway. I simply take it all the way. Auspices are nothing more than a chargen mechanic.

If you don't like that. That's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions, and currently you're quite invested in an owod game, so I'm not surprised you enjoy the themes.

It is however, a bit audacious, to claim I'm taking significantly away from Forsaken, when what I'm taking away, doesn't even appear to the original authors as a fundamental theme.

Also. I don't equate disagreement with personal attacks. I equate personal attacks with personal attacks, and it was made in the thread before you jumped on this one. You've now expressed your opinion (and apparently didn't follow your own advice by ignoring the post addressing it) four times. What else do you have to offer?

@Sunny said:

Peas? Carrots? What? In what fashion is my having fun on a game you don't like actually an insult? I like different things than you do. My way of doing things is just as valid as yours is, and turning into a rabid moon monkey because I dared disagree with you more than once...isn't doing you any favors, guy.

What am I? A tiny zebra? A rabid moon monkey? Don't be so transparent. I know what you were doing. You know what you were doing. If you want to pretend otherwise, have at it. Your posts speak for themselves, even if you have an interesting habit of walking back insulting statements and claiming innocence, when called on certain things. Roar on, frenzied mongoose.

@ThatGuyThere said:

OK now that I read over what you list as the important parts I can see where we disagree the most the themes you want to emphasize are the ones I find very not compelling about it.
Even the non-werewolf media you list go to my earlier refrain of gang war with fur. Now I love me the howling flicks but if someone said hey lets rp something like them I would roll my eyes and decline. , hell I even love Ginger Snaps despite it being b grade at best. What i want out of movies and what I want out of games are two entirely different things, especially in an on-line text game where most of the time spent in character is spent talking, but even for a table top if you invited me to a werewolf game then in the start of the first session explained this changed I would politely decline and head home.
What you see as design flaws are not universal as this thread proves. I might spend two hours watching boyz in the hood once in a great while but to rp it for three plus hours a week in table top or even longer online?
And speaking of Ginger Snaps at least based on what I remember from a few years ago when I watched it, wouldn't Harmony and morality loss fit that story very well?

I can totally see where you're coming from, and you're not wrong. But like I said, all those themes and inspirational media listed, are taken verbatim from the Forsaken 2.0 introductory chapter. So it's a bit dubious for some to claim who is more true to the game's main themes, when the Shadow is never mentioned in the above.

So before people claim that I am taking the game in a non-nwod werewolf direction...They should really read the nwod werewolf 2.0 book. All I've done is streamline it by removing a single layer of the overall experience.

The design flaw, as I see it, is setting up those expectations, and then losing courage and diving back into the owod cosmology. But I totally get where you're coming from, and I've played countless Forsaken games that were steeped in the Shadow. I was just hoping 2.0 would go even further than it already has in de-emphasizing the Shadow (you can't cross over at loci anymore), and not cling to it mainly for nostalgic reasons, and giving werewolves monsters to fight.

The duality in werewolf nature is Man and Eight-Foot-Killing-Machine. Not Eight-Foot-Spirit-Killing-Machine and Eight-Foot-Half/Spirit-Killing-Machine.

Shifting the focus onto Man and Wolf-Man, is keeping with the same general structure of the game. Just without some of its balconies and penthouses.

(And BTW, Harmony and Morality loss would work very well in the kind of story you mentioned. Especially tabletop. But 2.0 overdid the Harmony rolls, which if you've read them, your eyes will pop at how common they are...and on mushes, it's always a source for conflict and Kantian arguments.)

Part of the problem is in that 2.0, Harmony is different than in 1.0. It's more about trying to stay at 5-6, and away from 1 and 10. But so so many things can raise or lower you. So there are dozens of rolls a session, with a pack. And in the end, it's fairly simplistic to return to the 5-6 range. (Okay, I'm low Harmony? I'll screw that chick and keep screwing chicks till I fail rolls to get back to 5). It becomes meaningless, when staying in the sweet spot is fairly effortless to begin with.

@Sunny said:

@crusader said:

@Sunny said:

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.

Uhm. This wasn't an attack, actually. It was a compliment. Rage on, tiny zebra. I actually read all the threads on the site and was trying to figure out how to articulate pretty much what @Arkandel said. So I agreed. Because it does sound like good fun and something I would actually play. But it's not Forsaken to me and in my interpretations and for what I find fun in. It's just werewolf...and to play that, I really do think Cinematic Unisystem is a better idea.

Again. Please do me the courtesy I afforded you and Coin in the Detroit thread, and stop cluttering mine. You've already resorted to personal attacks out of the blue in another thread, so I don't really trust anything you have to say anyways. Clearly, we have very different ideas about werewolves.

@Sunny said:

@crusader That's hilarious. If you think that's long or that I'm worked up, I'm curious how you would interpret my actual long posts or my tone when I'm pissy/worked up/etc. This? Wasn't it. Pretty sure most anyone around here can tell you that. Read all the words. Seriously.

Also, forum discussion, relevant to my interests. Was not aware I had to be addressed to add my two cents. Oops!

This is a pretty quick walk back, from going at my throat in a page long post about what a monster I am, to 'oh, I'm just a neutral observer offering her two cents'.

I usually don't get page long diatribes about my RL proclivities out of the blue, and on completely unrelated topics, while that same person looks for me in other threads, when they're not upset about something.

I get it. I pissed in your Detroit cornflakes. It's already been observed by others in that thread, that you seem inordinately invested in defending the place. You already have my pity, if that's the kind of game and theme you're a fan of. Go and enjoy it with my blessing. You don't need to follow me around making thinly veiled attacks.

You can downvote every post I make. You'll still be playing on an abortion of a game.

It's funny how those that disagree with me seem to eventually preface their posts with 'I don't care about werewolf'. Okay, so why are you even here? How are you even invested in storytelling or running a werewolf sphere for the majority of people who aren't knowledgeable veterans?

The other cadre are those that have come directly from the Detroit thread. If your idea of a good theme and good lore, is how werewolf there is handled...then clearly, we have no constructive common ground. But since this is my thread, you can probably do me the courtesy that I did the Detroit thread, and tip my hat and fuck off.

Hardly anyone in this thread seems to understand Werewolf: The Forsaken theme.

People seem to have an idea of it in their head, but not what the writers themselves have actually written as the most important concepts. Let's open it up to the first page, to see what the writers claim is the foundational concepts of the splat:

1. Werewolf is a game of savage violence and bloody horror.
2. Werewolf is about dominance and violence, about a world divided into "us" and "them" It's about hunting and being hunted in turn. It's about how far you would go for one of your own.
3. Werewolf is about finding prey and running it to the ground, hearing it roar or defiance or beg for mercy, then crushing its throat in your jaws. It's about enjoying violence and dominance in a way you won't otherwise admit to.
4. Werewolf is a game about the thrill of the hunt, and the fear of being hunted.

That's the first paragraph of the introduction. The Shadow and spirits aren't even mentioned.

The Inspirational Media has only four selections. They are 'American Werewolf in London', 'Dog Soldiers', 'Ginger Snaps' and 'Murcheston:: The Wolf's Tale'.

Non-werewolf media is given as 'Boyz n the Hood', 'The Shield', and 'Sons of Anarchy'. Where is the Native American cosmology rip-off in that? I don't see 'Dances with Wolves' listed. Like it or not, the original theme and core design of Werewolf is closer to my vision than yours. If you'd ever read the pdf, you'd know that already.

The design flaw in Werewolf is setting out these themes and inspirations, and then doing a 180 into entirely different, owod-esque pseudo Native American cosmology that doesn't significantly impact the core werewolf game. This is a holdover from owod, just like the werewolf sex was a holdover taboo from metis.

In that sense, my 'fixes' do make Werewolf more New World of Darkness, and less Old World of Darkness.

If you disagree with me, fine. But don't just talk out of your ass. At least have an understanding of werewolf. At least have read the new 2.0 pdf so you have any basis for engagement. Don't just be here with an axe to grind for something I disagreed with you about in another thread. Because all I'm seeing here is a whole lot of condescending ignorance about the game they're professing to defend.

And again. If you don't care about werewolf. If you don't care about storytelling it, or running a game based on it in a more sensible online fashion, then why are you even here? All I've seen is a lot of trolling about the same ad nauseum issue, which isn't even correct to begin with, as the games own writers would have it. It's like all you can see is the old White Wolf paradigm of choosing your character like you would an MMO character, by slotting it into some Auspice/Tribe version of classes. That's not the core werewolf experience. That's just a character creation White Wolf trope.

So please, tell me some more how my ideas aren't true to Werewolf. If this post comes off as a bit harsh, then it's because it's hard to stay courteous when I've got three people from the Detroit thread trolling me.

@Coin said:

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

If you want to be pedantic about the title of my post, go ahead. I titled it the way it is because Werewolf 2.0's Nine Design Issues That Are More Difficult To Apply Properly In An Online Medium' didn't roll off the tongue so easily. If you want to keep focusing on that, for like the 5th post now, I'm going to begin to wonder where mildly constructive ends and trolling begins. But like Sunny, I know you're only here because of the Detroit thread.

If Detroit is your bar for what is good or fun in werewolf - and that abortion of a werewolf apps page - then I am ecstatic you disagree with my ideas.' Now please, do me the courtesy I afforded you in the Detroit thread, unless you can do something but mention the same damned thing for the sixth time in a row.

@Sunny said:

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.

@Sunny said:

You're displaying very typical poor listening skills; it's very common in meetings and the like to have people closing their mouths while other people are talking, but rather than listening to the other people that are talking and paying attention, the poor listener simply is waiting for their chance to share their opinion further/prove they're right.

Way to make a whole host sweeping over-generalizations, about myself and my views. Where do you even get off talking down to me like this? Who should I be listening to, that I'm not? Who I was arguing with in my post or trying to convince? Where did I say my experiences were more valid than anyone else's? You're the one that seems to have poor listening skills.

In my experience, I've seen people take staff-run plots far more seriously than PrPs, and I've seen PrPs often done in shallow, meaningless fashion just to rack up some XP for participation. If your experience is different, more power to you.

I do prefer a game with dedicated RP staff, and where players that become PrP runners are a bit more vetted, and working with staff.

You don't agree? Fine. But your long, condescending post making various RL allusions in my direction is hardly merited. You don't care how seriously plots or storylines are handled? Fine. I disagree.

I want some element of quality control. You evidently, and feel so strongly about it, as to make attacks on me. That's fine.

I wasn't even in a discussion with you. You seem to have gotten overly worked up about something which had no effect on you, and in which you weren't even addressed. Would you rather just live in an echo chamber?

I'm sure this has nothing to do with my totally unrelated opinion of Detroit's staff, and the way you seem compelled to protect that game against majority opinion.

@Ganymede said:

My point: you cannot with any certainty lay the blame on the XP system. How XP is delivered is usually of minimal concern. To make a game work, you need to be able to attract the right kind of players. Those players will gravitate to games where the activity, community, and rewards fit their vision of comfort.

I fully agree that the XP/incentive system is just one part of a greater whole of why something succeeds or sucks, and is far from the biggest part. Great ideas, great motivation and great leadership often overcome in any setting.

@ThatGuyThere said:

You never answered my question, what themes are you leaving behind? Honestly I can't think of any besides fighting for territory. With out the higher purpose it seems like gang wars which doesn't particularly interesting to me. And without Harmony any mechanical teeth are taken form a personal story of degradation into a monster. I am not against changes in general, but what to you see the characters doing in this game? And why is what they do ICly important to them? These two things to me are the essential questions or any game design.
For example I avoid D-n-D games that are heavy on the dungeon crawl cause I do not like dungeon crawls. This does not make me or people that like dungeon crawls wrong but it does mean we shouldn't' be in the same d-n-d game. And that includes one of my RL best friends who I game just about anything but d-n-d with.

You're inviting a monster post from me, about the themes staying behind. So you're forewarned.

I like the fact that you're putting the onus on me to set out what's good and stays, and not just what's bad and goes. I'll give it the response it deserves, when I get home tonight.

@Misadventure said:

So instead of flaws, read the word as issues, and get onto discussing whether players will miss these things, or if there are other approaches to fixing the issues, or related issues, mentioned.

Right. I'm still really curious in people's opinions of #2-#9, if they can get away from the Shadow bit.

I fully take the blame for leading off with the most controversial and provocative statement. But in my defense, it's not like I pulled it out of my ass. It's lifted almost wholesale from one of WW's own publications. (Albeit, a semi-official mini-pdf released online). So it never occurred to me that the Shadow was a fundamental part of the werewolf experience. I find it interesting that it touched a nerve in so many veterans. And it will influence my thoughts on it and how I broach it to people in the future.

As unpopular as this opinion will be, I actually think that PrPs have had an overall negative effect on MUSH culture.

Some of them are great and well done, but a lot of them aren't. I've also never seen players take them particularly seriously. They phone in participation, never expecting that they'll face any danger from a PrP that could threaten their character.

There's something about staff running a plot, which has always made players sit up and take notice and invest more in the outcome, even if XP wasn't given as a reward.

I'd rather create more vehicles and conflicts for players to ICly hash out on the grid amongst themselves, because at the end of the day, only players can keep up with other players. A cadre of dedicated storyteller staff (not headwiz types, and not approval or administrator types...just storytellers), kept around to spice things up, would be better than random PrPs.

If someone has a great idea, or a great story to tell, then they can get 'deputized' for a temporary duration.

Obviously, current culture is almost 90% prp and 10% staff-run, where it used to be 90% staff-run and 10% prp.