Posts made by crusader

@ThatGuyThere said:

Wow I think we have a major disconnect as to what a major theme is. I have never found fire to be much of a theme at all in vampire, a weapon yes but not really a theme anymore then guns are a theme in most games with a modern setting. Useful tools and weapons yes but rarely more then that.
Maybe we should try a different tactic in this discussion, what are the major werewolf things you are keeping?
As far as removing the forms I would be a little disappointed cause I tended to be in Urshal a lot when playing a werewolf, but really that change would not matter much. I would just rarely be in any form but human with being a wolf occasionally. I think I was in the war form twice in playing wolves across two different games.

I think discussion on point #1 has more or less run its course. I totally respect people's opinions about it. I do think some are reaching for low fruit in attaching a much greater importance to the Shadow as a vehicle for 'outrage'. The Shadow is what it is. If a small, tight group can make it work, then great. But it's one of those things where if everyone isn't on board and equally OOCly knowledgeable, it tends to suck. And most nwod Forsaken players treat it like owod umbra anyways.

Furthermore, Forsaken 2.0 divorced the Shadow even more strongly from the game, as four of the tribes are built in such a way that they have no reason to ever enter the Shadow and are even suggested not to. Going into the Shadow is a niche Bone Shadow thing. The mechanics for entering the Shadow were made more difficult.

Tribes and Auspices are entirely irrelevant as to anything but a White Wolf paradigm charater creation process.

Totem spirits and loci are never given attention by staff in an online game. So removing them and replacing them with a kind of fluid pack dynamic, makes sense. Better staff doesn't solve the issue. Not unless you had one great staffer per pack.

I struggle to realistically accept any of these as core parts of werewolf's deeper themes.

But thank you for mentioning the point about dalu and urshul. That mirrors the experiences I've had both as staff and storyteller, with my players. Those two forms received about 90% of the action, as opposed to man, wolf or wolf-man. And I do honestly think that is a tragedy and IS a flaw in the system.

@Ganymede said:

@crusader said:

Fixed XP promotes idleness and insularity.

Prove it.

Oh, wait. You probably can't. No, wait. You can't.

Fixed XP promotes idleness and insularity as much as having shitty staff, bully players, and restrictive rules. The presumption that an absence of activity-related inducements means a reduction of RP on a grid is absurd, and countered by several games that enjoyed substantial activity over a period of time.

I concede there are players who want a reward for being online and roleplaying above and beyond the enjoyment therefrom. I question if I want to set any policy to favor those players.

Reno seems to be a good example of a fixed XP system not working to provoke much RP on the grid. I know on Reach, there were many people who only logged in to play with a couple other people, who on past games, I'd known to be much more active on the grid to hoover up votes. And I know the exact reasons they gave about not needing to make the effort to meet new people or participate in prps, or do anything they were'nt 100% enthusiastic about, because they were already drowning in hundreds of unused XP.

I know my own predilections from playing on various games. When I thought I needed lots of +votes for things, I would make more of an attempt to be more active and meet new people. When I knew I was getting a ton of XP no matter what, I often didn't bother.

People love to respond to anything they disagree with, with demands for incontrovertible evidence and flawless facts. But that's not how the real world works. All we really have to draw on is personal experience and circumstantial evidence. I make my conclusions based on the observations I've made, both as a player and as staff, over quite a few years.

I'm not saying fixed-xp is the end-all and be-all, and that +votes solves everything. What I am saying is that +votes promotes more activity on the grid.

@Coin said:

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

You've already taken issue with my title.

What do you think about the other eight points, btw?

@Coin said:

@crusader, again, you're putting this on "Staff" as if these things are 'design flaws' that don't work because they 'only work in TT but not MUs'. I am so tired of saying this: these games were not designed for online play the way we play them. You do understand this, right?

What's your point? That's the whole reason for this thread. Why would you even post that, when I acknowledge that as the exact reason in like the first 4 lines of my first post?

I'm trying to present these issues in the objective reality of how they're actually handled on various games, and most people here seem to prefer some idealized tabletop setting or small, exceptional group of people.

I'm basing my experience not on those few friends I had fun apping in with, but how in a werewolf sphere of 50+ people, at least 30 were clueless and could care less. And all of the arguments and drama related to shit like Renown.

@HelloRaptor said:

But its not WoD.

To be clear, that's not what I said, though perhaps you meant it's not WoD Werewolf.

The core wod setting is generic enough that it could be home to all manner of crazy shit, and as a jumping off point you could tack on whatever you liked, even stripped down, soulless versions of other game lines. So what he's presenting would work just fine as a using-wod-setting-and-mechanics-to-play-WEREWOLVES-BUT-REALLY or whatever.

It's just got nothing to do with nwod werewolf, and it's not because you're creating 'hacks' to fix 'design flaws', and everything to do with just wanting to play another game entirely that happens to include things that will be called werewolves.

It's interesting that the Forsaken writers could put out several mini-pdfs (there were four, called Chronicles) which discussed various lore hacks they've used in their game, and that's still nwod werewolf...even though some are much more dramatic than mine. Some of which were anticipated by Forsaken 2.0.

But Forsaken and Forsaken 2.0 still have alot of owod baggage. And much of it doesn't hold up well on a MUSH with lots of people and limited staff interaction.

I'd like you to be honest with yourself, Raptor. And consider this for a moment in a serious voice, and not a jokey voice.

In all of your time playing, have you ever thought that staff really handled a pack's totem spirits, territory, Renown (oh, the various shitstorms about Renown) or Morality checks particularly well? Or has it mostly been either ignored, arbitrary or often disputed?

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Basically... what @HelloRaptor said.

I have zero issues with your proposed changes for whatever games you're running in TT Land. But its not WoD. That's what your group wants, then run with it. But the things you want to remove from the game are what make it a WoD game. Tribes, Auspices, Shadow, Loci, actual raising and lowering of Primal Urge and Harmony... those are all the core precepts of WoD Werewolf.

Also... because I Am Nerd... the movies you're thinking of? 'Alaska vampire' movie is 30 Days of Night. James WOODS and Daniel Baldwin were in John Carpenter's Vampires.

I disagree with what's a core, sacred precept of werewolf. But I understand and respect your position on the matter. But I do think you have it backwards...All that stuff you mentioned is what can work on a tabletop, if you and the group are all on the same page.

It's what I've never seen handled satisfactorily on a MUSH. Not as much Tribes and Auspices, (which is more of a setting, creation thing and actually has almost zero relation to werewolf's core themes), but Loci and Harmony. I've seen very few players handle Morality check requests well. Most try to rules lawyer around them or get offended when brought up. And if Loci at the Reach are anyone's idea of what works on a MUSH, then I pity them.

Anyhow, what's most important is that you solved my mind-itch, as to what those two movies' titles were.

I'm not upset that people disagree with me. But I am bemused at the passion I've seen broached for certain concepts vs the attitude towards them I've seen in practice from the majority of casual players.

What do you think of removing Dalu and Urshul?

@HelloRaptor said:

If somebody posted in the constructive forum that they felt Twilight was the definitive modern vampire fiction, ergo vampires being damaged by sunlight is a design flaw and here's a hack to fix it so people can play Vampire: The Requiem the way it should be played (and why not, since I bet way less than 1 in 4 players or staff ever have sunlight act as any appreciable threat, and just run 99.9999% of their scenes as if it's nighttime anyway), it's entirely likely they'd get mocked and ridiculed instead of getting constructive criticism or feedback.

It's interesting that people are so attached to certain things. The Shadow is not as core to the werewolf thematic experience, as fire is to a vampire, or ghost is to a geist.

I personally think claiming it as such is more an example of a rose-tinted argument. I get it though, that it was an extremely provocative idea to lead off with, and I've considered all the feedback on it valuable. That said, I must reiterate that the idea wasn't even originally mine, but came from a lore hack out of White Wolf's own Chronicles supplement.

What's your attachment to Auspices? The Pure don't have them, and I found the lack of Auspices made pack forming easier and more natural. People gravitated to what they wanted to do and not what they felt like they had to. Auspices were only included as a way to make chargen easier for some people, and function like classes. I've only had a chance to see Pure packs form on a mush a couple times, but both times seemed less stressful without deciding who got stuck as the Elodoth, etc.

What's your attachment to tribes? White Wolf itself will discard the tribes at a moment's notice, depending on the setting, or else break their backs trying to explain away their existence. Tribes were improved in 2.0, but there is still nothing 'core' werewolf about what you choose to call them.

@Thenomain said:

Coin and Ark get it. I didn't say much because there wasn't much to say. Having "staffed and head staffed on multiple games" myself, I find people will play the game they want played. For werewolf, there is quite a lot of grunting combat monster since day one. You can thank Rein*Hagen for that, since that was pretty much 90s Werewolf's design goal.

I would be more thank happy to keep Werewolf away from that, but I am a lone sheep.

Speaking of grunting combat monsters...

Claimed, Beshilu, murder spirits, are all just vehicles to create even more fights in werewolf, without them slaughtering humans. So I was just surprised you intuited the the removal of such elements would entail more combat. It also suggested you didn't even get to the part about taking out Dalu and Urshul.

If you've storytold a tabletop Forsaken game, you'll know there is a big incentive for players to spend most of the game in those two forms. And that does dilute the primal horror of the man to wolf-man kill switch.

@Arkandel said:

What people are saying is that the things you find disagreeable with nWoD Werewolf are pretty much... the game. You could gut them out, sure, but at that point why start with that particular game at all and not base it on something else instead? What you are proposing is like saying "I like Geist except for all this ghost stuff" - more power to you, but what you'd have in the end is something else entirely.

I get it. I get it. I don't mind the discussion, I welcome it. I'm still going to reply, and try to correct what I feel are misperceptions or over-emphasizing on the wrong points. Some people will have good and valuable insight, like you, and some will be dicks like Theno. I'm at peace with that.

But I'll say this as gently and sincerely as possible...What I don't need is you or anyone else attempting to explain what others mean.

Trust me...I get exactly what they mean. I'm not sure that they get what I mean. But I'm crystal clear on the main thrust of the push back to removing the Shadow.

Personally, I don't think a pseudo Native American spirit cosmology is as central to the werewolf experience as ghosts are to geist. It's a completely ancillary, fantasy aspect of the game that was built on top of the popular culture tropes. I got the idea for dumping it from a hack written by one of Forsaken's own writers, in the mini Chronicles pdf.

It's okay that other people are far more invested in the spirit aspect. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Only correct misunderstandings in my position. I'll be interested to hear about the other points as they relate to a mush.

Personally, I think if these elements were gone, they would not be nearly as missed as some are claiming here, no more than taboo werewolf sex was missed, or lupus and metis. But I understand the incentive to claim otherwise.

I think a lot of veteran's opinions would dramatically change as to what they considered core themes, if they were put in the position of dealing with more people who can essentially grasp the popular tropes and human condition/horror aspects of a game, but are never going to read deeply into the fantasy lore or meaningfully tell the difference between a Storm Lord and a Blood Talon - or care. It might also surprise you to learn that at least 3/4ths of any werewolf sphere on any mush is equally ignorant/unconcerned/still thinks its owod, and just go through the motions if someone can walk them through the totem/loci/chiminiage/spirit interaction. Auspices are essentially no more than a short hand for classes, and don't most people prefer the freedom of a classless system?

I also wouldn't mind the opinion of anyone that's ever head staffed a werewolf sphere, or run a long term werewolf tabletop game.

@Coin said:

P.S. I find the comparison with Vampire and how Vampire relates to vampire fiction writ large pointless.

If we use that as a base with which to decide what elements we should and shouldn't keep in the games, Mummy would be a shell of what it is, Demon would be something completely different, Promethean would have no lore, Mage would be even more watered down hermeticism, Changeling would have none of the socio-political backdrop, and Geist just wouldn't even exist.

Changing Breeds might stay more-or-less the same. Maybe.

So basically, the only things that would stay the same are Vampire (not really, IMO, but sure) and possibly the worst game nWoD put out. And maybe Hunter? Maybe.

So that logic just doesn't scan with me.

You're not following the logic very closely then, but I can see how you missed the thread, as we got off onto a real tangent. Essentially, it was along the lines of werewolf being no less WoD for choosing which source material to emphasize at the expense of other sources, just as the writers themselves have suggested or offered examples of.

I also don't understand your statement that my claim to make werewolf more WoD-y is blatantly false. Where in the nwod main book is the Shadow dealt with? In any case, all I've claimed is that my hacks would shift a greater focus of werewolf onto nwod's general preoccupation with primal horror and the human condition, and more away from a pseudo Native American cosmology and spirit world.

Disagree with me all you like, but that seems so far from blatantly false as to basically be unarguable. Of course anything that removes the Shadow is going to focus the game more on werewolf and human interaction. So it really makes me think you're reaching, there.

@Coin said:

"What I Think Doesn't Work About Werewolf 2.0 On MUs and How I Would Fix It" would be a better title.

I considered that, and then I considered the two separate groups I've run tabletop for, one more or less new to the hobby and the other owod veterans, who also strongly disliked the Shadow/spirit emphasis. I've seen many groups form under many different circumstances, and with veterans from newbs (although strangely, I am the only one that has ever MUSHed among either set), and I know what worked and what was less accessible to them.

In any case, I will be interested to hear what others think about points #2 -> #9.

I must say though, that I can't help but roll my eyes at the defense of Harmony in this thread. Everywhere I've ever staffed, whenever a Harmony/Morality/Humanity roll was called for, 8 times out of 10, the player would throw a fit about it, and I've seen multiple sessions, both online and on table, that devolved into people arguing about whether they should take a Morality check.

Forsaken 2.0 has a ton more of these, and I find they interrupt gameplay too often. On a mush, Harmony was already mostly ignored or handwaved.

What I find fascinating, is that what a lot of people are claiming to be their favorite part of the game, is the exact part which on various mushes, gets either abused, gamed, neglected, handwaved, ignored or misunderstood most often.

I understand people have attachments to a certain idealized way of doing things in their mind, but at some point we must admit to ourselves that certain systems do not translate well to a MUSH environment, and are not nearly as central to the theme of wod werewolf as some would like to imagine.

@Coin said:

Nnnnnot the same thing when you're offering a product you expect people to pay for. Not even close to the same thing.

It's not the same thing. But it's close to the same thing. You're trying to draw in strangers, and make them interested in what you have to offer.

I've over it, though. I had my immediate reaction, and now I hope Supes and the game all the best. I hope he attracts enough likeminded people to create a fun and sustainable RP environment.

@surreality said:

Yeah, I think there's room for a 'werewolf as the pop culture example goes' style of game -- it just... isn't really what nWoD werewolf is.

I have to wonder, though, if that is the direction they aim to go with the Pure in 2e. That would be interesting.

I'm glad I made this thread, because even though I've staffed and head staffed multiple times, I've never gotten the sense that people were that attached to the Shadow/First Tongue as a fundamental concept of werewolves.

I personally think it's possible to remove the Shadow component, and still be nwod werewolf. And in fact, be even more nwod werewolf than before, by focusing more strongly on co-equal themes. I was in fact, inspired by a mini-pdf that one of White Wolf's writers put out offering up just such an idea.

So I must admit, I'm a tiny bit taken aback by the breadth and solidarity of the sentiment, even to the point of someone earlier suggesting I use a different game system. As if the Shadow had anything to do fundamentally, with the nwod rules system, or if the rest of it wasn't perfectly suitable.

I also get the sense from this thread that people are putting on rose-tinted glasses, when it comes to various MUSHisms and instead treating it as if under ideal tabletop circumstances.. Stuff like Harmony, Renown and Loci have never been adequately handled on a mush. They sure as hell weren't on HM or the Reach.

In the future though, the Shadow hack will definitely be point #9 instead of #1. I think leading with it distracted people from the broader flow of making the game more streamlined and 'mushable', and not so much focus on the beautiful exceptions.

@surreality said:

@crusader Actually, while those examples are great for 'this is how this faction within WoD might look', the majority of those worlds do not ever imply that there are vampires of any other kind in them. Blade and Underworld are the big exceptions here. For all we know of most of those settings, that's the one kind of vampire out there -- not one kind of many.

There's a fairly good example of factions in Lumley's fiction, but none of that has made it to the big screen yet. (Someday, maybe!) It's what a fair bit of the notions of the Tzimisce from oWoD were drawn from, however, if I had to guess. (It's not a hard guess if you're familiar with the Necroscope series, which makes the Tzim look pretty tame by comparison at points.)

None of these -- barring Blade, oddly enough, as the closest -- has the broader scope suggestive of WoD vampire more broadly.

Good point and good examples.

But I hope we can agree that nwod vampire hews much closer to popular culture tropes than nwod forsaken does, without being any less purely world of darkness.

My original assertion (which you don't have to agree with) was that Forsaken can also be skewed more closely to popular culture expectations, without being any less world of darknessy.

I think that's how M-D and I got onto vampire movies.

@Sunny said:

If everybody gets the same amount of XP (roughly) every week, then yes, it puts it back to the point of: RP is its own reward. What you'll see are fewer huge scenes, and people doing more RP that actually matters, rather than doing something not-fun because they have to. Forced-activity isn't particularly fun activity.

Sadly, what works on a tabletop, rarely works on a MUSH. A MUSH, in order to be successful, ultimately thrives in one of two ways:

1. Be the 'IT' game of the moment, where people congregate to in spite of its many failures, simply because it's the biggest game in town. Quantity has a quality all of its own. Haunted Memories and the Reach are both good examples of this phenomena. But even back when there were a lot more owod games, the player population shifts could be dramatic.

2. Reward and encourage activity by hook or by crook.

I submit to the court, that if Reno had a +vote system instead of a weekly system and beats +requests, they'd have twice the active average playerbase as they do currently.

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@crusader Typical vampire horror has zero politics, generally has no competing factions of vampires, rarely has Clans at all... I can go on. Its more about the angst over or reveling in BEING a vampire, generally speaking. There's been some obvious exceptions. I still think Underworld drew from WoD.

If you proposed to take away all the things of WoD Vampire that you propose to take away from WoD Werewolf? I would have zero interest in that game. Dracula's story was never overly interesting to me. Nor was Twilight's angsty teens. I enjoy those aspects that make the game unique, instead of just Vampire/Werewolf game #3729.

I disagree. Underworld is an example, but even Blade, Twilight and especially Interview with a Vampire revolved around vampiric politics and factions. Most other recent examples, such as that one, Days or such, about vampires hunting humans. The typical forgettable Ethan Hawke vehicle. Even Lost Boys and uh, that movie with James Caan and one of the Baldwin brothers. Dusk til Dawn was basically the Sabbat. Along with that Alaska vampire movie.

Whatever one's reservations about the various franchises listed, none of them are appreciably more corny than owod vampire (which was primarily inspired by the above films, excepting Twilight).

I'm having a hard time thinking of a major modern vampiric influence in the popular culture that eschewed political concepts/factions. Either as vampires competing amongst themselves, or as a thinly veiled metaphor for human political conflict. Church vs the vampires is the most common exception.

There are some that deal with the individual horror of the vampiric condition, though I'm having trouble thinking of one that had an influence comparable to the above.

So I think I must be missing something, if you think the opposite is true.

It's also worth considering, as M-D alluded to before, that making a game hew more closely to an 'American Werewolf in London' style theme, is as much 'Nwod Werewolf' as anything involving the Shadow.

Look at all the movies and books, like the Howling, Dog Soldiers, etc, that White Wolf mentions as primary influences in virtually every WoD werewolf sourcebook. I've seen them mention 'American Werewolf in London' a dozen times across various supplements.

There's nothing inherently anti-WoD about excising the Shadow/Umbra cosmology of it to focus on those aspects. The average player reacts better to its exclusion. Most staff or prp runners can't effectively or interestingly handle the Shadow RP anyways. Of course, my hats off to those exceptions that can.

In the grand scheme of things, its actually a relatively minor facet...when you consider core themes at work in a typical werewolf story, or even a typical World of Darkness story.

@Wizz

There's always going to be exceptions. As I've said before. About 1 out of every 4 werewolf players in any given werewolf sphere seem to 'get it'. But when players do get it, it rarely seems to create an immersive or exciting experience for the rest. I'm glad there are exceptions. I've seen precious few of them. (And I know that this kind of post is the exact kind of post that draws these kind of counter-examples. But I think if people are honest with themselves and judge the whole breadth of their nwod experience across various games or spheres, they'll acknowledge what is usually done poorly or most often misunderstood by new players.)

Maybe I have a different perspective since so many of the people I run tabletop sessions for are not MUSH or WoD veterans. Maybe if you haven't head-staffed a sphere a couple times, you haven't been constantly exposed to those who have the most difficulty.

My tabletop players are usually trying to fully engage in the 'werewolf experience' with its sensory input, rage and new feral approach to life's various hurdles, and have little interest in the pseudo Native American cosmology aspect of it. Some of Forsaken's own original writers agree.

Most players I've encountered in werewolf spheres, are like my tabletop players in most respects. A handful (like those that post on WORA or boards like this) are much more confident and knowledgeable.

Again. Regardless of Theno's seemingly deliberate, facetious misunderstanding, it's not about making the game more sparse or combat heavy. It's about shifting the focus from the spirit world to the human condition, which is actually keeping more in line with nwod's tropes than the heavily owod-inspired version of the Forsaken myth. And again, the original Forsaken even kept the metis taboo (even with no real reason for it), until 2.0 let it die.

@ThatGuyThere said:

Well what do you leave after the changes?
Basically you get big and hairy and territorial and kill things? Maybe I am over simplifying but with out the spirit world and the loci you remove the intellectual core the things my character and have deeply held feeling s about,. with out the murdering of Father wolf why do the pure and forsaken have a beef? It sounds like it becomes gang warfare fuzzy division. Again nothing wrong with that if you and your players have fun but that does not appeal to me.
To me the harmony and other morality systems is what make a lot of WoD for me. having to make hard choices on what does my character do knowing that when he acts to do what it has to it will come with a price take that away and well it just gets too d-n-d for me. Part of what draws me to WoD is the slow lose of self that dropping morality brings, and that that lose is close to inevitable.
To me your game could be fun yes but it sound very combat centered. And well for a combat centered game I would want something more robust then WoD as a rules set.
To me the draw of WoD any flavor has been the setting, While the rules keep improving I still find myself playing WoD in spite of the system rather then because of it.

Fair enough. I liked this post, and what you're trying to convey here, so I'm going to give it a comprehensive reply.

In my personal experience, only about one in four players are ever successful in attaining an adequate grasp of the Shadow, and most of those are owod veterans who basically transplant their owod understanding of spirits to the Forsaken version of spirits.

But I completely understand how someone could enjoy and be attached to it. I just don't think it's ever given adequate justice on a MUSH. The 'intellectual core' of anything rarely is on a MUSH.

I don't actually disagree with anything you've written here (except one thing). Everything you've mentioned, the Shadow, Harmony, Loci, etc, can all work very well when ST and players are on the same page.

That said. I want us to step away from the theoretical and look at the purely pragmatic. Have you ever played on a MUSH game where you were happy with how Loci, Harmony and totem spirits were handled by the game's staff? Or, be honest with me...and I've staffed several places so I know the answer here...Do things like Loci, Harmony and totem spirits get more or less completely ignored or handwaved by staff?

How vital or important can they be? Nine out of ten times, any +job related to the loss of Harmony/Morality/Humanity is rife with disagreement. Forsaken 2.0 has something like 10x the number of Harmony checks. I don't know how it got past playtesting. How important is something when the majority of the players try to rules-lawyer their way around it?

But I only really take issue with one thing you've written, which is that it makes the game more 'combat centered'. I don't understand that at all. Spirits and the Shadow are a vehicle to create more fights, violence and conflict in the game. Oh, it's a murder spirit, let's beat it up! Oh, there's a claimed! Kill it!

Realistically speaking, the removal of the Shadow, and especially of Dalu and Urshul forms, and shift the focus more on the human condition, makes for far more nuanced and elss combatty games. We've done it on tabletop, and I think it'd work just as well on a mush (since 75% of mushers are ignorant about 75% of the 'intellectual parts' anyways)..

It's a shift in focus from the spirit conditions to the human condition. And again, it's about ditching baggage from owod. Forsaken 1.0 had inter-werewolf sex as a sin. Why? No particular reason. It was just a holdover of owod metis. Spirits are the same. I prefer to keep it to just ghosts as described in the nwod core book.

ADDENDUM: I realize I didn't address the Pure, earlier. Whenever they've been used well as NPCs, people have bitched remorselessly (Haunted Memories - just ask AQ). When they've been introduced as PCs, people have bitched remorselessly (The Reach). They aren't core to the game, and are just a White Wolfism. Rival packs, tribes, protectorates or lodges can have the same function. I always saw them as more of a parody of owod garou.

@DamnitJim said:

Since this is someone running a game on their own private property in a free society, I'd suggest that someone a strong aversion to social justice themes should respect their property rights.

You need to reread your Locke, Hayek, and Nozick.

I actually don't want to busy up this thread anymore. But I can't let this particular comment slide.

You forfeit your perfect right to some kind of Lockesian defense, when you advertise your product to strangers in a public forum in the hopes of finding more collaborators. You fully deserve whatever comments or observations might arise from it. Whether they are mostly positive or negative. You can't filter out only the negative comments and leave the positive, or it gives third parties a deceptive view of what you're really about.

Everyone here would take offense to Amazon.com deleting negative reviews, or a company paying someone to leave positive yelp reviews.

I think the response has been comparatively mild, and probably sparked more interest in the game from those people that do agree, than would otherwise have noticed it.