Posts made by faraday

@carma said in The Desired Experience:

Maybe what I'm really asking is, Sandwich Club members, what kind of storyteller attention do you want?

I don't think there's a universal answer here.

There are some Sandwich Clubs that, as @Ganymede says, just want to be left the heck alone.

Barring that, though, I think they're entitled to the same support as anyone else on the game. That doesn't mean you have to personally craft events/hooks/scenes just for them. It just means you shouldn't actively prevent them from accessing plot hooks you dangle for the game at large.

Most Sandwich Clubs I've encountered (including the ones I've personally been a part of) are not 100% insular. They may prefer playing with each other, but there's enough tangential encounters that anything you give to them has a chance to spill out to the rest of the game -- especially if the thing you give them leads to some kind of public event, or requires support from the science department, or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with staff gently incentivizing people to play beyond their comfort zones; it only becomes a problem when it's forced and/or expected.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

@faraday Oh, Zane would enjoy eating the dishes brought, they're just reserved for others.

You say the dish is reserved for others like there's a sign on it rubbing Zane's nose in the fact that he can't have it. Maybe if the RPers were all: "Haha, no you can't play Zane, neener neener neener" that might be the case. But for me it's more just that somebody else ate all the cookies before Zane could. It's not Abigail's fault that she didn't bring enough cookies for everyone.

Can we maybe just agree that the potluck analogy is imperfect?

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

@faraday You've got this assumption that Zane feels all high and entitled to people eating his brownies. But that is what a potluck is for. And in the MU potluck, you can't eat your own dish, only the dishes you trade it for. He didn't expect to show up to the potluck with brownies and not get to eat. Is he wrong?

Yes, he's wrong. The idea of a potluck is that you bring something to the party hoping that others might enjoy it, and hoping that you might find something there you might enjoy as well.

The key word there is hope.

Nobody is obliged to eat the brownies that you brought.

Nobody is obliged to bring a dish that you will enjoy eating.

Zane may leave bummed and hungry, but that doesn't mean the other partygoers did anything wrong, and it doesn't mean that he's a bad cook. Things just didn't work out. If that happens a lot the host of the potluck may want to revisit their strategies.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

@faraday Because, as @mietze points out and has been demonstrated in the thread, "just suck less" and "If you were fun, people would play with you," tends to be what people actually say.

If the answer to "why am I not getting any RP" is "just suck less", that's a separate issue. I don't care if the person saying that is only playing with the Original Sammich Club or if they're on every night playing with 90% of the game. They're being a jerk.

But I think more often you'll see comments like "you get out of it what you put in" or "I dunno, I get plenty of RP, maybe you could try (whatever)", which are more misguided than malicious.

The truth is that finding RP involves many factors. Faction and location dynamics, character roles, what plotlines are ongoing, scheduling, existing relationships (IC and OOC). Your character and personal RP skill certainly matter, but they are by no means the only (or even main) factor.

Telling someone "If you're fun people will play with you" is just factually inaccurate.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

Zane brought a big bowl of potato salad that's pretty good, but most people are full up on brownies and sandwiches and don't want any

I can understand why Zane would be bummed that he brought brownies and nobody wanted any. I've literally had that happen in potlucks. (I took the brownies home and ate them myself.) I still don't get why Zane would think the other people somehow owed him eating his brownies, or that they were rude or "uncool" for not doing so.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

"I don't know you and don't have the time/energy/inclination to see if you really suck or not, but go away until you suck less."

I really don't understand why you keep equating "I'm here to RP with specific people" with "you suck", or why you equate "Sorry can't play right now" with "go away until you suck less". They're just... not connected.

It shouldn't matter why I'm here to RP with specific people. Maybe I'm shy. Maybe I'm self-conscious about my RP. Maybe I have a newborn baby at home and only have an hour to RP and choose to spend it with my bestie. Maybe meeting someone new/unfamiliar requires an extra level of creativity that I don't have it in me to give.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with you.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

But they're not. They are playing on your game. Or rather, at your game venue. But they are playing their game. Nobody else gets to play. They are showing up at your pot luck, availing themselves of your tables and napkins and comfy heated rooms...

Yep, and I'm fine with that, because my job as an admin is to provide a venue for people to tell THEIR stories, not to tell MY story. If they're entertaining themselves and having fun in my tables, more power to them. That's awesome. If they contribute somehow through the sorts of "spill over" I described (logs, ancillary RP being spurred, etc.) all the better, but it's not required.

and insulting your other guests by replying to "Hey, that looks good, can I have some?" with "Nope, I only have enough for just us," and "Want some of the potato salad I brought?" with "Naw, I'm too full from eatin' this delicious sandwich that you can never try."

Whoa, when did "insults" become part of the scenario here? Everything we've been talking about has been people minding their own business RPing with their friends. If they're actually NOT minding their business but instead being obnoxious jerks, then you deal with that. One really has nothing to do with the other.

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

I would count "logs other people can read" as being an analog to "talking to others at the potluck," so my statement would not include such an example.

Take away that specific contribution, and my point still stands.

Even if someone logged in and never spoke to a single other person besides their one BFF, never posted a single log, never participated in a single plot, etc., if they and their friend are playing the game and having fun then that's enough of a positive for me.

As @Ganymede and @Sunny pointed out, everyone has their own unique circumstances. I don't understand what is to be gained by judging people and booting them out for failing to live up to some arbitrary expectations of what you think they "should" be able to give.

(ETA: Talking about a generic PC here. I can understand exceptions for featured roles and such where they may have signed up for specific responsibilities as part of taking the spot.)

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

If you want to consistently only make four super fantastic sandwiches for you and your three friends and only talk and spend time with them, have a card game/board game night with them instead of going to the potluck. Everyone will have a much better time.

This just literally makes no sense to me. If Gany consistently logs onto my game and plays with their four friends and only their four friends, they're still playing my game. Gany and their friends are having fun. Maybe they're sharing logs now and again for other people to read. Maybe one of their four friends RPs about the shenanigans with somebody else, generating RP for them too. Maybe seeing some activity (even if it's private) helps to convince others that the game is still active.

There are so many potential positives that I really cannot fathom why anyone would think I'd be better off by them going to their own private card game instead.

And there's no negative. It's not like I pay hosting fees per player or anything. There will be no additional RP generated by the absence of Gany and their friends -- in fact, there will measurably be less.

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

Do I think RPing exclusively with four other people is cool? No. I think it's equivalent to showing up at the pot luck with four sandwiches to hand to your friends. If it's a sandboxy game, okay, its maybe more like a park where people are meant to do that, but probably you're using plates and napkins and drinking from the host's margarita pitcher.

Ooooh, I like this analogy.

See, whereas I look at it more that you're invited to a party and you choose to just hang out with a couple of people you already know. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with mingling with new people either, but it's a personal choice.

If I were invited to a party where the host was like: "Oh and I expect you to go out of your way to ensure that other random strangers at this party have fun" I would look at them like they're from Mars while I politely declined their invitation.

@ganymede said in The Desired Experience:

Ultimately, as long as I'm not shitting on other people's fun, I think I'm okay.

That's how I look at it.

If staff feels its important to encourage RP circles to interact with each other, or to get new players involved in things, they have the tools at their disposal to do so. Plot hooks, incentives, RP through their own alts. Just as the host of our hypothetical party might introduce a lonely friend to some other like-minded people, or orchestrate some group activities, or just sit down and talk to them personally.

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

I honestly don't get where people are getting that from. Either as an expectation, or that I've said you have to play with everyone.

I mean, you said...

Everyone is responsible for everyone else's fun, to a point. If a player mentions that they're not having much fun, then do your best to accommodate them in your play

Maybe that's not exactly what you meant? But that certainly states that I am somehow responsible for Jane having fun on the game to some extent, and I'm emphatically disagreeing with that point. Jane is responsible for her own fun. I am not obliged to "do my best" to accommodate Jane in my play, because it's a game. If all I want to do is log on and play with Bob--if that's all that I have the time and energy to do, or if that's all that's fun for me? That's enough.

Is it nice to help Jane have fun? Sure. Is it good for the game when people do it? Sure. But that's a very different argument than saying I'm "responsible" for it.

@juniper said in The Desired Experience:

This is a hobby, not charity.

Yeah, I really don't get this expectation that you should even try to play with everybody. Just no. It's a game. It's meant to be fun. If you're doing something that is torturous for you, then you're doing it wrong.

Sure, it's nice to reach out and take chances on people, especially new folks. It takes a certain amount of critical mass of players and RP to keep a game open, so one can argue it's in your own best interests to do so at least occasionally. But never in any way would I expect people to treat it as an obligation.

What a nice idea.

Stores from friends (who happen to be former MUSHers):

https://store.carpediemcomics.com/ (Comic/Gaming)

https://www.imperial-supply.com/ (Geeky Gifts)

I think nodeBB is fine if there's some way to just fix the install. It's simple, it's intuitive, it has everything you need to have the opt-in forum groups (like politics, hog pit, etc.).

I personally like Discourse, but the differences are mostly style and preference. I really can't think of any compelling reason to recommend it over nodeBB, except maybe the ease of upgrades. The achievement system is kinda fun I guess.

I have used phpBB and SimpleMachines in the past and found them both lacking compared to either nodeBB/Discourse, FWIW. Haven't used any of the other forums on that list, or even heard of them.

@macha Are they trying to make a training video for how to lose a discrimination lawsuit? Because it seems to me that this is how you make a training video for how to lose a discrimination lawsuit. (usual not-a-lawyer disclaimer here, but I hope you are able to get help from one soon)

@arkandel said in The Desired Experience:

If they don't think about it too much they may easily misguide (without any malevolence on their part) someone to play one without considering what RP or plot points they can make available for these new players so they are relevant and get started.

But when you stop and think about it, this is really no different than if someone of their own volition decides to play a Gangrel biker. They should consider what RP opportunities would be present as a Gangrel biker, and whether that's something they would be interested in. If they're not sure, they can ask.

It shouldn't matter what staff needs/wants - what matters is what YOU are capable and willing to play.

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

Craft something that you would enjoy playing. Staff are not diviners. They cannot foresee your future. Do the thing you wanna do, try to find a way to make it click, and if it doesn't work -- I mean. You know you best. How are staff supposed to do better than you yourself?

I agree with this, though I don't think there's any harm in having some general guidance. My games always have a "What Should I Play?" page with suggested roles, and I may supplement that with some extra info if someone specifically asks. "If you're looking to fill a niche, we don't have a lot of combat engineers" or "If you want to go where the people are, the Viper pilots have been doing a lot of RP lately."

But none of that is intended as a guarantee of future results. Maybe the main Viper RP-magnet quits tomorrow and that group falls apart. Maybe you and some of the Viper pilots rub each other the wrong way. Maybe you really hate being a combat engineer. I have no idea.

As @il-volpe says, recruiting somebody for a group/faction/role you intend to ignore is crappy. But sometimes as staff you just can't predict the way the RP blows, and no amount of breadcrumbs help.

The main thing is that If somebody asks for help getting involved in the central plotlines, I'm always happy to steer them in the right direction--even if that means concocting a plotline where their videographer starts a militia, or their priest becomes a combat medic. That still requires them to take some initiative and not just sit back expecting RP to fall into their lap.

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

you can make them play with someone they'd otherwise ignore, by dropping plot points over there.

Why should you have to though? Just because somebody had no idea what to play and you said "Well we don't have any Raptor ECOs at the moment", that doesn't in any way oblige you to drop special plot points just for New Guy ECO.

Now if you're deliberately telling people to make characters on Mars knowing full well that there's no RP to be had on Mars, that's a jerk thing to do. But general recommendations of what you can play shouldn't come with a perceived entitlement that staff is going to do any more for that role than any other role on the game.

@ganymede said in The Desired Experience:

You attract great players. We in the World of Darkness are not always so lucky.

I mean, I've also had the biker gang who overran my coast-guard-in-space game, so... it definitely doesn't always work out, even outside Wod

@ganymede said in The Desired Experience:

Because my experience tells me that too few people are happy being just the cook to risk the headache of folks who also want to be Steven Seagal.

Fair enough. Personally I don't mind the cook-turned-navy-seal types as long as they're willing to put in the work to get involved in the action But I can understand just not wanting to deal with the complaints at all.

@macha said in The Work Thread:

Well, I have been told it's this or nothing. Other people in my same job are NOT being forced into this, because they've gone back on site to their county offices.

Other people in your same job aren't entitled to reasonable accommodations under the ADA. You are. So it's not really apples-to-apples.

My experience with is is more from education, not workplace, and I am certainly not a lawyer or an expert. But it really does sound like you need advice from someone who is - either a disability advocate (there are many non-profits across the country) or a workplace lawyer.