Posts made by Ghost

@Ganymede Apology accepted. I also came in super hot and my tone was snide.

@Ganymede I'm gonna leave this alone, but next time I'd respect you attacked the idea. I'll keep the rest to myself.

@reimesu okay but do people with admin tags also have to follow forum rules? I'm asking for admin support to keep an eye out for people (me, in this case) in terms of direct attacks and public medical assumptions.

Absolutely toning it down and want to move on, but I feel it is potentially damaging and not okay.

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

PS: @faraday just being reminded that there are people who can't visualize characters from text is enough for me to say if I were the head of a text based RP game I would be okay with PBs.
You'd think I would remember this since I have family and friends who have the same experience.
I'd still put images behind a spoiler tag or similar.

Yeah this actually came up in convo I had lately with someone and I absolutely agree with this point.

There are ND people or others who have hard times turning text to mental imagery, and I think that's 1000% valid. Great points. And given the potentially high population of people this would help, it makes PBs seem much more relevant alltogether.

Does it change my stance about wanting to see good writing and seeing descriptions in prose? No. But the idea has given me something else to consider for sure.

@Ganymede don't mince fuckin words with long paragraphs trying to act like making an insult about your opinion of my ego and stating that I seem unable to accept an addiction as some worldly statement about everyone but it just happens to include me. You're playing around with attacks on a specific person's emotional center as well as playing armchair addiction advice to a specific stranger. You really think that's appropriate and/or responsible?

Now, gross analysis of other people's mental diagnoses may be the tits on that other forum (aka the same place that talked shit about you for months for not following their mutual bargaining directives when ownership changed), but here... it's against the rules. Probably because it could be truly damaging to complete strangers; perhaps even to the point of being dangerous.

For all you know your "necessary" and "probably felt good saying" words could have sent me into a RL spiral! Pedestals are pretty risky things to hang out on.

It doesn't bother me, I just have an allergy to fake shit. Own it. At least when I talk generalities about my feelings on the hobby and community I own my intentions and language. I suspect you felt free enough to break your own forum's rules because you leveraged that you could do it to someone you felt was unpopular enough that no one would call it out.

Regardless, this is incident #25,000 on this forum of someone saying some non-directed, unpopular stuff and it resulted in direct, potentially RL harmful attacks by the so-called "moral high ground" who felt reassured that they could say something mean at a nuisance without having to be responsible for it.

So how bout you leave your critical analysis of me out of these discussions, because trust me I wouldn't dare do the same thing to you. I see no benefit in taking the time to try to make "situational cruelty" look like a Jerry Springer Final Thought.

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

You may feel that tall and above things, but I think that's due to your pedestal of self-righteousness. We've both participated actively in the hobby. And if we liken it to a vice like an addiction, the first step to actual recovery is to admit that you will always be an addict. I think you're just as much of a creepy weirdo as the rest of us, no matter how long you've spent outside of the hobby. The difference between us is that I accept this, but you apparently do not.

Wanna walk back that attack or write a paragraph about how it isn't? I thought better of you than this.

You may think I'm an asshole, but you're also the one who helped pen the policies about direct personal attacks soooooo

@faraday Yeah. I'm on the fence about AiArt/Midjourney. Granted, I don't think people who generate art via Ai qualify as an "artist" (for some reason people have started to think the Earth is flat, so let's not go crazy equating people with search engine skills as Frida Kahlo), and I think it's generally okay for RPGs and character art for RPG games, but the impact it's having on paying artists is wrong. I don't like where it is going.

Yeah...I dunno. I think at the end of the day the worst of the hobby comes down to sex, jealousy, bullying, and complications with mental illness. Obviously, due to sexual harassment I've had to endure on numerous occasions, my hot button has been considering ways to affect the negative behaviors associated with sexual harassment...which everyone benefits from. I believe the "Shang" roleplayer mixing with players like you has created an environment where some players can't help but try to bring Shang with them mingle with people that aren't about graphic sexual roleplay or OOC flirtation.

100% agree that the topic of anything relating to sex or IC relationships is the cause of endless amounts of drama in the community. Snide me says "must be that whole 'it's just roleplay!' mantra". Realistic me says that while I enjoy kicking at that box of "denial spiders" (because let's be fair, it affects outsiders, too and we wish some of these people would just evolve and stop), it's worthless waiting for this behavior to stop (or even asking) because it seems ingrained in a lot of personal RL needs/deficiencies/issues/etc. I've been there. I get it.

So my dislike of how some people utilize PBs as a sexual lure/object slips into that. Unfortunately, with this community, there's no way to resolve this stuff, because the hobby presents itself as an open-to-the-public environment. It's easy to let people in the door on these games, but hard to keep unwanted players out.

<insert BlahBlahGhostsRepeatingFunctionOnGamesSupportingSexualAbuseRoleplayCorrellatedToTheNumberOfPeopleBehavingBadlyAroundSexRoleplay argument>

@Derp said in The Case Against Real PBs:

@Ghost

My dude. You’re a bit out over your skis here. Take a breath, find your chill. Reasonable people can disagree in reasonable ways. Your examples and language do not currently fall within the bounds of “reasonable”, nor in fact “mildly constructive.”

Take it down a few notches.

Cool cool. I read.

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Glad that was worked out.

Glad what worked out?

@faraday said in The Case Against Real PBs:

ETA - Believe it or not, there are players who don't RP TS. What if a whole game banned it (and hypothetically had a way to enforce it, like no private scenes)? Would that somehow make PBs okay? Not advocating for that, mind you, just a thought experiment.

I don't have an issue with TS, but constructively I think some people pass on players who don't TS; I've actually had players suddenly get electrical storms when I turned down TS. So there could be a pocket of people in there that others who didn't partake in TS weren't exposed to. What I can't understand is how many people I know who have also had similar stories (some 20+ people) and the number of people who claim not to have had incidents like these at all. I guess it might just be sampling

Alas, no, I don't recommend any MU to ban private scenes or TS, because we've seen time and time again that no one plays those games. So scratch that. All I'm saying is that for X reasons my preference is to read or view art of original characters than to see the same 45 actors used in every MU (I want to see creativity)...but also for the reasons (snide or not) in my OP. If I were omnipotent and ran a game my rule would be "No actor/actress/model PBs" and I believe the byproduct would be an environment (not that it would thrive at all even if I did so under an alias) with less of the issues I described, or at the very least a more interesting and original environment.

Subsequently, as a TTRPG GM I've been promoting use of original or Ai art, and it's pretty regular that I don't allow PCs from other games or templated characters (at least in games that don't have novice players). I think the overall experience is better for everyone when new things are created. Ownership of something organically grown so-to-speak, I feel, benefits everyone.

@Devrex said in The Case Against Real PBs:

include making everyone who has ever used a PB feel like garbage

Let's be honest, here.

None of the same boring people with the same boring, predictive cycles "felt like garbage" about this. None of the same boring people giving each other high fives about cleverly worded insults really give a fuck. Why are you shocked at this point? Is it fun trying to find new ways to say directly disrespectful things to me while I don't?

Commit to discussing the topic without making it about me and fuck off. I started the topic. I got biases. I'm not gonna attack people who aren't attacking me. It's how conversation works and I'm open to it.

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Did you tell them you were doing it? No? Did it affect their lives in any way that you were doing it?

Question.

Would it affect your life at all if someone you didn't know admitted to masturbating to pictures of you? What if they told you not only did they do kink-stuff using your likeness, but simulated a "relationship" with another person who was also gratified by your image?

An old player I used to MU with once told me (after being apart for years) that they made our FireflyMush characters into a sims game that had been running for years using sex mods, and went into detail about how many kids they had, etc. I can tell you honestly that someone emulating ME emulating a celebrity for years with all kinds of sex shit on their ooc end was really uncomfortable. I also clammed up all the time when I did TS and got a page about how they fapped to it.

In fact, I'd say over 70% of the interpersonal bullshit I ever got into in this hobby was always related to either me trying to flee for my life from a creepy player or other gross OOC boundary violations, so...I'm inclined to believe my own experiences, trust me.

I feel we are all logical and reasonable enough to agree that it's generally not okay to simulate that level of intense stuff using another person's likeness as a puppet, and that "if the victim didnt know it's okay" is rarely a valid argument involving sexual anything.

Maybe it's just me and I've been away from this shit long enough to step back from a 10,000 foot level and analyze how fucking weird this community can be. I think there are delusions and addictions at play and a lot of work goes into defending the outlet, especially when RL isn't cutting it. I've been there. I get it. There are just these pockets of weirdness and whenever myself or anyone else points them out there's a lot of "playing defense" around those topics. Very bizarre, and I'm grateful I don't draw from the hobby for a social outlet, anymore outside of occasional forum stuff.

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

"ridiculous argument about Sporty Spice"

This was posted as I was writing my post. I'll counter a ridiculous argument with another one, did you ask for consent from all the people you jerked off to in high school? Did you tell them you were doing it? No? Did it affect their lives in any way that you were doing it?

In fact, I did.

But the Sporty Spice argument stands. In fact, your straw man about whether or not I got consent forms from some bikini model applies! No, I wouldn't tell said model or whatever I tugged to when I was a kid that I did so because it's creepy, somewhat violating, and uncomfortable.

Whether or not I did X when I was a kid has no bearing on whether or not the argument I have presented makes it okay now.

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

"Ghost thinks people who use PBs are creepy weirdos, and if you disagree with that, then you must be one."

To be fair, Ghost thinks a lot of people he's met in the hobby are creepy weirdos, as referenced by a lot of creepy behavior. My argument here is that there is something creepy actually happening that I don't think people point out enough.

Take it or leave it or block me if you require, I'm just sharing my viewpoint and if people don't agree that's fine, too.

As for the "if you don't agree..." thing, I swear I've heard and seen this kind of talk so much that really I think "defending the hobby" and "dodging talking about it" can be one in the same, but I would be fucking amazed if someone could prove to me they'd never seen this behavior; it's that common.

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

There's no harm in using a picture in public domain

Alright, let's test this.

Let's say you use Sporty Spice (the best spice btw) as a PB and roleplay out an artful ts scene that just happens to include both your RL kinks and the kinks of the partner. This may or may not involve "chair gratification" by yourself or the other, which may or may not be admitted to.

Now, you're at dinner and someone brings a friend. It's Sporty Spice herself.

DO YOU TELL SPORTY SPICE THAT YOU HAVE USED HER LIKENESS AND IMAGE IN LINE WITH A SEXUALIZED SLASH-FIC SCENE WITH ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A RL KINK FOR HER?

"Oh hey so you'll get a laugh out of this. I roleplay in an online text based game where my character uses an image of you as their likeness. The sex scenes are super hot and she's currently in an in-character relationship with someone pictured as James Franco."

it's a simply yes/no question and if the answer is no, I'm pretty sure that line of thinking will end in "...because it would embarrass me and come across as creepy."

And it would come across as creepy because it's apparently not favorable in the public eye to use someone else as a gratification tool without their consent.

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Here's the thing about someone's chosen PB, it really only matters to them.

Respectfully, I think I will have to disagree with you, here.

I would say the # of times someone sent me 2 pictures linked in a page and asked who I'd rather fuck is pretty high, as is the number of times someone's told me "I had a bad experience with a Chris Pratt so won't RP with someone with that PB (or "only crazy girls and dudes pick Milla" has been said to me more than once). I've also had instances where people specifically thought to "collect" my PC by picking PBs they think might be in my wheelhouse. I've been asked on numerous occasions to make characters with very specific PBs based on their kinks (Gerard Butler, Cilian Murphy, etc)

Just being honest, here. The hobby has a lot of platitudes about "say this but don't say that" (Storytelling not writing despite people being judged on their ability to write, ts vs ooc cybersex, etc), and I think that "the only people who care about the PB is the player" is one of them. There is absolutely an element of trying to use PBs as lures for TS and romantic roleplay, and anyone saying otherwise is either out of bias or protecting the argument.

There's a whole iceberg of stuff that is weird, and I just happen to think PBs are one of them.

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

so this really reads to me like an attempt to shame.

Nah, I mean I obviously have my own biases and opinions. I don't think anyone should be shamed for TSing. I just think the people who call it "writing" and then repeat that mantra despite the ooc attachments, jealousy, etc should be shamed. It's not writing for them.

But those kinds of people using PBs as cybersex sock puppets ARE technically facilitating a sexualized experience with said person's likeness.

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

overwrites the imagination

I loved that.

And I get it. I'm not a "slut shamer" or whatever. I don't even mind TS in theory, but in my experiences a lot of the TS is more linked to "what's your ooc kink" than "what's your character's kink", which is why I liken the concept for a number of players to it as less of a writing thing and more of a personal gratification thing.

But either way, my litmus test is "is it wrong to use a 'real' person's image (ex: Facebook, your RL girlfriend, or someone's mom) as a PB?" and if the answer is yes, then for the same reasons it's wrong to use celebrities, too.

But if it's not wrong then fuckyeah I'm gonna use every one of the cliques uncle's as PBs, right?

I think I've posted about this before, but I've been generating a lot of art lately (Ai and digital) and it made me think of why I'd always prefer that to using actor/model/actress PBs. I thought I'd share.

Real People Puppets
The first thing that has ALWAYS creeped me out about using actor/actress PBs is I'd say over 90% of the MU community uses famous people as PBs, but I'd easily put the % of MUers who partake in TS to be over 70%. This means that they are using a real-person's likeness as a sexual gratification object. It made me wonder what I'd think if I met the person.

"Hey dude, im a huge fan. I use your image to entice others into having cybersex with me, but its okay because its ART" (Airquotes)

At what point is it an unapproved sexualizing of another human being without their permission? If the MU community is the same people who lose their shit playing watchdog for people who are annoying, one would think that not using another human being as a gratification tool would be higher priority. I assume it's no different from Anime: Despite the fact that it sexualizes 10-16 year old girls with fan service and panty shots...."you leave my favorite anime alone!" Anime is largely given a hall-pass on some pretty rank behaviors and I think this behavior tends to be ignored with PBs because "My hobby/story" comes first. Too many people rely on the hobby to find human connection, so like TS=Cybersex, it's just one of those things that talking about would be rocking the boat.

To that, I say...

Rock it.

IT IS A -WRITING- HOBBY
When I started the hobby no one used PBs; they used text description. Granted, I think the use of PBs in the hobby is mostly used like an advertising scheme

"Do you fap to that one girl from that one TV show? Then roleplay with me!"

Or.

"If I use an image of a famous person, then I dont have to be so creative about describing how they look, nor do I have to properly make an actual character. I'll just emulate Rovert Downey Jr"

...which misses the whole point of what the hobby was supposed to be. The amount of this before I ultimately quit the hobby was crazy, and from what I hear it hasn't changed.

Own your content
This is what got me, too. Sure, with your own art (or even Ai) you can actually OWN the material, whereas a good number of PBs used are probably at risk for "cease and desist" as in most cases the photographer or the PBpuppet actually owns that image and how it is used.

Now, this last part is going to sound snide, but it's just me trying to speak plainly and logically:

For the people who have put 10, 20, 30 years into the hobby, and if you want to feel as if you accomplished something other than a revolving cast of closed games and constant slashfic, you really should be attempting to make your own organic content. 30 years of "I sock puppeteered Daniel Craig in over 200 TS scenes" where you used the person's physical likeness and mannerisms isn't actually creating anything, even if you say Daniel Craig is named Steve and is a vampire. The basic building blocks of everything done in that scenario isn't creation; it is emulation, and if the hobby were truly about writing and not about PBs, TS, and constant relationship and coffee scenes there would be more thematic risks, more focus on prose and original concepts, and more games with original themes.

Instead the "bee's knees" is Margot Robbie PB as Emma Frost TSing a Tyler Hoechin PB as Superman on a superhero game where every city and organization (Metropolis, The Green Lanterns, the Xavier Academy) are other people's creations.

Putting it all together in my head, I now see why I didn't like PBs to begin with, and it's not me being some old man shaking a cane at those darned kids.

@reimesu Second-in-command the Bake-Off. It's so relaxing and Noel is my spirit animal