@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
let them know what they're missing out on in this hobby
Which is... what, exactly?
Fuck your excellent point.
This is a great hobby plagued by some massive problems.
@HelloProject A lot of men play lesbians. A lot of people with male socialization play lesbians. The lesbian representation on mu*s is not great. That's not a slight toward anyone unless you aim it at anyone in particular, which would be rude and more importantly, fruitless.
@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
My point is that "male socialized" people playing lesbians isn't necessarily a cause of poor lesbian representation, since lesbians with that alleged quality exist. It's like saying "a lot of redheads play lesbians; lesbian representation isn't great."
I'm not going to lie and start saying that men playing lesbians hasn't been terrible for lesbian representation because it's now not PC to say something that's been true forever and will continue to be true forever. If it doesn't apply to you/someone you know/someone you've heard of, that's great and I'm not debating it.
@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I think Rinel's point was more that some people raised with male socialization are actually lesbians themselves (because they are trans women).
As I said, I don't police what people call themselves. I take Cirno at face-value that Cirno is black; it doesn't mean I think every black character Cirno plays is going to be great for black representation just because they say so.
@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
See, this is the shifty attitude I'm talking about. I'm legitimately trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I prefer to think people aren't raging bigot, but what you're writing over and over just sounds like transphobia without a spine.
I don't hate or fear anyone for having gender dysphoria.
@Rinel Well now that you've gotten them out, I hope there is peace in your head.
@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
honestly I'm pretty pissed off that you're such a shitheel
My feelings are hurt by all this name-calling outside of the Hogpit.
@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Non-binary, genderqueer, genderflexible, trans, agender people exist, and some have male socialization, and some play lesbians without a lot of regard for female socialization differences, and that's not been great for lesbian representation on games and it's hardly hating or fearing trans people to say so.
See it would have legitimately been better to just lead with this instead of dancing around the point, because then I could have just said "you mean it's not great for cis lesbian representation since trans lesbians exist."
Because, yeah, the experiences of trans lesbians are often really different from the experiences of cis ones.
I didn't dance around any points, I said what I said and you chose the most uncharitable interpretation possible and that's just a day ending in Y on the internet.
@GreenFlashlight That was tackling the pretty uncontentious part of what I'd said, I left 'male socialization' out because I wanted to talk about lesbian representation being diluted by men for years & that being something we've talked about forever, versus the newer mainstream coming to terms with people socialized as male who no longer identify (or never identified) as men.
Spellcheck is telling me 'uncontentious' is not a word and it's stressing me out.
@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Rinel I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but when you divide the line, in text-based gaming, between trans/not-trans lesbian representation, you are ignoring the fact that men who play lesbians are almost universally not playing trans characters, they are speaking for and over female-socialized lesbians.
I don't know why men playing lesbians should be expected to play trans lesbians instead of cis lesbians. The ways in which cis lesbians and trans lesbians differ is not something that means a man is more suited to play one over the other except in perhaps the most basic and vulgar concepts of anatomy, assuming you have a trans woman who has yet to begin any form of physical transition.
I in no way implied that men should play trans lesbians, and in fact I think that could actually make things worse. I said they don't. The fact that "No, everything is fine and not liking the way lesbians are represented in games is dogwhistle terfery" is the response here leads me to believe that lesbians don't get a voice in lesbian diversity representation unless they're trans, and that's disturbing.
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Edit: This is ICA-ICC .... the world deserves to react, you can't hand wave it (or you can, but loses believability to me). Its like saying, we'll we killed the police chief because we wanted to, no one found us because on one was around on-line, guess we got away with it. They have to make up why they didn't notice us.
You can kill them, sure, but the story is losing verisimilitude for me by assuming it was just that easy.
There is a world of difference between killing a PC and killing a named NPC. The PC's author is here, the named NPC's author is generally staff. I'm all for intelligent debate - we all know there are differences between MUDs and MUSHes so why not discuss them, it's healthy and it's good. But when the examples become outrageous, what are we really arguing anymore? No one is saying 'let's murder the NPCs because we can!'.
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
As an aside, I'll say this. MUDs, or the ones where you're accountable for offline time, really favors the players who can make time commitment and dampens the fun for those with less time. Which is why those with less time probably seem to favor MUSH that gives them opportunity to have fun without a major time commitment of building up a char slowly over time to be on par with the majority of the player base.
I find this to be a disingenuous statement at best, as if the issue of whether or not someone is 'active enough' doesn't come up fairly regularly on MUSHes - it does, I'm pretty sure it's the basis of a post on this website today in some other thread. Every game will suffer from the 'Need Player 32 for X reason at Y time' situation now and again, whatever acronym the game is predicated upon. 'Activity' is nothing but a ratio of time spent in-game and time spent off-game and the only way to not hold anyone accountable for their offline time is to have zero expectation of activity whatsoever.
@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
I like @Wretched's motto:
If someone is OOCLY unavailable, never give them dickish consequences or treat them like an abandoner.It's a nice motto, but I suppose I just don't see someone not being around for something as a dickish consequence? And at no point did I accuse C of being an abandoner. If B dies and OOCly blames/guilts C for not being around, that's B's inability to separate IC from OOC, aka B's problem.
You might not but considering the number of times I have seen just that when people have been not on for something, excuse my doubt in thinking it wouldn't happen more often then not.
That sounds like something to be taken up with the people abusing players for not being around ICly. I don't believe in bending to the whim of people that I believe are behaving badly. I don't tolerate bad behavior in children, why would I ever tolerate it in allegedly fully-functional adults?
On a MUSH, you're only obligated to deal with people you care to tolerate. There is less of a need for coded systems that put hard limits on things, because you don't really have to deal with something past a timeframe you're relatively comfortable with. If you give someone a wound that is definitely fatal, but allow them time to be 'dying' instead of dead, and they linger for 2+ RL weeks because they need to have one last scene with everyone they've ever met ICly in their life... well, you can't go brood in the Emo Bar (No black trench, no service) about how you killed a man today... because Joe, Bobby, and Sally are all talking about going to visit him in the hospital - tomorrow afternoon. How long is reasonable for someone to linger on? Whatever time you say will be arbitrary.
Same situation on a MUD - the victim has one hour to say their goodbyes to whoever can reach them in time. If your character wasn't logged on, you get that pocketful of angst that you didn't get to speak to Harry one last time before he took that long walk into the sunset. Is the length of the timer arbitrary? Yes. I thought the question was 'Is the length of time allowed for someone's final hour arbitrary?' which made no sense to me, because an hour is an hour. It's not a 'perfect fix' for a MUSH because on a MUSH, telling the story you want to tell is the focus, while on a MUD, telling the story happening around you from your limited perspective is the focus.
MUDs are games. You don't get to timefreeze PvP in in any real-time game. Except Fallout. V.A.T.S. is awesome.
@Groth
No, that was a drunken rant I'd forgotten about. Shame on me. Except I don't remember it, so the shame is cake for all intents and purposes.
@Thenomain
Well I never played Portal, so I'll take that penalty.
Most shameless jerks, I have found, are pretty self-aware. Shameless jerk generally being a label applied to people that don't have much regard for wording things politely, regardless of whatever their message/intent may be. Show me an asshole that honestly doesn't know they're an asshole and I'll show you someone that probably has a few indicators of a personality disorder. The problem is, when someone acknowledges that they're a jerk/asshole/rude person and then asks that their opinion be taken with a grain of salt but still be taken because it's valid outside of the less-than-polite delivery method, someone invariably slaps up an 'EDGY, HUH?' meme because it's easier than thinking.
I've never been into outer space, but based on things I've read, shadows and horizons I've observed, and spoken testimony of specific scientific figures, it is my opinion that the Earth is round.
If a five year old tells me it is their personal opinion, based on nothing more than liking pizza and birthday cakes, that the world is flat - I'm going to have to respectfully decline to give their argument equal weight to someone that's read a book, any book.
TLDR; Everyone's right to have an opinion is equal. (Unless you think Beyonce didn't have one of the greatest albums of all time.) All opinions are not equally valid.
@Lisse24 said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
@Pandora said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
There's a difference between 'The NPCs say my scandalous vomit-green dress is hotter than yours' and 'I rolled the dice now tell me about your ties to the demonic horde while we prep the executioner's blade, traitor'.
No one has argued for either of those things. The first is boring, the second robs a player of their autonomy. However, as @Sparks pointed out, there's a more indepth conversation about social combat in another thread.
Some people don't care about fashion and sparkly shit and gossip and that's 100% perfectly fine, but writing off a system that would benefit the fun of people who do enjoy it as 'boring' would be a disservice to those who appreciate the less-feudal warfare side of L&L games. All I want is to play a pretty political princess with lots of fucking diamonds. Somewhere, someday, someone is going to enable that.
@Bananerz
It gets so expensive to raise any stat once you've invested a sizable chunk of XP into a character. Arx is designed for masterful specialization, or jack(ass) of all trades. You can't be 'the best' at everything, but you can certainly be fair-to-middling at a lot of things. It's up to the player. Not sure what you mean by no realistic costs for actions with consequences, that doesn't seem to happen now and I don't see how or why it would suddenly start happening later.
I hear so much about how terrible it is, all the social classes mixing together with wanton abandon, but you never really see anyone make a fuss about it IC. Make a nobles only restaurant if you want exclusive RP (class exclusive, not player-clique exclusive, it's not the same) or strong-arm commoners into etiquette classes and teach them how to curtsy, sip tea, and stfu in the presence of their betters (YMMV but some people who play commoners do like this sort of RP, my etiquette classes on Firan were always full). Be the change you want to see.
Cliques are a part of life. We have them at work, at school, and on games. If you're not part of someone's clique, why does it bother you that it exists? If you want in, make yourself appealing to those cool kids. If you just think 'they think they're so cool', let's not be five years old about people having friends. @Apos hands out plot pieces like free candy (no seriously, just show up and actively RP and you'll see what I mean) and anyone can run PrPs so it's not like being outside of any clique will limit your RP possibilities unlike in many other games.
@Thenomain Cliques can certainly be non-inclusive. I've never subscribed to the idea that I owe RP to everyone, or that I am obligated to RP with anyone out of some sense of fairness and/or equality. I RP for fun, I RP with people I find fun, I RP with groups of people I have fun with. That's a clique, right? A roleplay clique? No one is being harmed.
@Bananerz went off on me in a private message about someone having a negative clique experience on Arx, but I'm not going to go searching the thread for it. I'm sorry if the cool kids don't want to play with you on Arx, find some friends and RP with them instead? There are so many more pressing issues in the mu* community than a group of people not wanting to play with someone for whatever reason. Key word is 'play'. Playing with someone you don't want to play with isn't play, it's work. I don't work for free.