@Ominous said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
Changeling is one of the few WoD settings I have been interested in, but I don't have any of the books. Do I need the books to know what I am doing to play here?
On the whole, for any RPG, read the book. If you have to borrow it from someone you know online, try to do so. If you like Changeling, throw some money Onyx Path's way just like you would any artist you enjoy.
As a thought: Being accused of shit-talking or participating in a witch-hunt can be insulting when you're being straight-forward, and can quell conversation that might reveal the nature of the problem. I am not saying that you're wrong even if I disagree with you, but the issues of approaching an issue does go every direction. It's why I took your musings as a straight-up and honest question that deserved consideration and answered.
I was going to be sarcastic (because c'mon, look where we are), but because I wasn't your response to it was, "Uh guys, this wasn't my intent." You stepped forward like an adult to discuss things and explain yourself rationally. Respect was shared.
The same goes with this response to @Roz, and kind of answers a few people as well. "Treat everyone like an adult; expect others to behave like an adult." Once this edict starts being used by everyone, this is how we can approach touchy issues without devolving to name-calling.
Like, you know, "crap-flinging" or, to bring it back around, "witch hunt".
I'm not saying I'm innocent of this either (especially to you; sorry about that), which is why I mildly berate myself at the start of this thread, to remind myself to stop doing that.
--
edit:
@Ghost said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:
Well, VASpider is just the first one in the stocks.
Then it's up to all of us to keep ourselves in check (like adults) so that we don't start down that path. The first step is being able to identify when it's us, and when it's not.
@Arkandel I only play as women. I've tried male characters lately but, c'mon, we are largely pretty boring.
Also extremely fair. My end-game is noted, and so yes I took your philosophical thoughts and ran with it. Not going to blame anyone for going, "Argh, don't blame me if this goes sour!" I'll take that hit.
But people also need to know how to identify someone they might not like but still should put up with, or how to deal with people they think may be a problem. Being able to talk it over and have people with perhaps more level-heads say, "Theno stop spazzing out, this isn't a big deal."
I've had one or two people tell me, "This is how you are, Theno, and this is why people don't take you seriously." (Alternatively: why people don't come to me for help.) I've tried to take it to heart--with varying success, obviously--and knowing how to be your own sensible friend is a pretty potent skill.
It's also nice to know when you aren't crazy, when someone you've been trying to be the better person with and understanding and so forth is just not worth it.
This is the "knowing" part, only half the battle, but the other half is going on in some discussion already so I wanted to shine a brief spotlight on the Identify The Root Problem part, because sometimes it's us and sometimes it's not.
@Ghost said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:
I would like to state for the record that my 'quoted' comment above was not intended to in any way start any sort of actual mob-rule banning effort, nor was it intended to start anything, really.
Then my Rhetorical Question sensor is on the fritz, sorry.
--
@Rook said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:
@Thenomain
No no. I was posting in the spirit of a more generalized thread, not her specifically. It seems to me that the comment of 'why start a thread like this' is going to come up rather quickly, so I guess I sort of answered that. Dumb?
Nope, makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.
Do you have an objection that you want more hard complaint than soft complaint? I'm not sure the purpose of what you just said otherwise. And there were more than a few straight-up examples of Spider's behavior in the other thread, examples in which were called "shit-talking". You can't please everyone.
@Arkandel said in Good writin'.:
There's a reason we announce PrPs and allow players to sign up instead of just picking rooms people are already playing in to run them. Opt-in is a great thing.
ooc Hey guys, I was thinking about running an action scene here about someone on the run from Possessed rednecks; anyone in?
I mean, you don't have to schedule these things to not disrupt another scene.
Bringing this out of the Fate's Harvest thread out of request of the staff of FH. I've also generalized the thread name because there's a lot we don't like, and we can be constructive about it.
So let's be at least somewhat constructive. This is probably going to get touchy, so if we find ourselves getting shouty, someone just pipe up to remind them.
Yes, I'm very much talking to myself here as well.
@Ghost said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
All Witch Hunt wording aside, I think this situation is pretty interesting.
- A number of players won't even play on games she's on, sort of out of protest to staff
- If VASpider were to open a game, she'd have to do it incognito or else word would spread and she'd never get the attendance.
So I've gotta ask constructively, what's the end game, here? Just a bitch session about her, or is there some kind of communal effort to auto-ban and exile her from the hobby altogether?
My personal goal is to see that she does not find quarter to start her pattern of being nice until something changes then absorbing the fun of others. That is, that people know who she is; they can make their own decisions from there. I pretty much have one long-term rule in this hobby: If people show that they are willing--to change, to apologize, to step back, to help, to be a positive influence, however you want to phrase this--then I'm willing to try to understand and accept them. VASpider is on a list of currently one person who has repeatedly failed this test in ways that have hurt others including those who considered her a friend and those who trusted her to have their back.
I think that everyone else here except me and @Miss-Demeanor were just venting off steam about Spider in general. I know that others have plenty of right to say something about her, but didn't, and they are quiet heroes. I even tried to keep my vitriol down and understanding high.
--
One of the reasons I generalized the thread title is because many of us have felt this way about someone, and addressing it more analytically than passionately may, I hope, allow others to look at their online relationships in general instead of this one specifically. It's easy to talk about people like Custodius and everyone will nod and say how horrible a human being and troll he is, but it's harder to talk about someone who is both nice and selfish, both friendly and self-serving, someone who can be a hell of a lot of fun to be around but only if you're in and/or not threatening their circle. I point at people at the Five Geek Social Fallacies a lot as a primer of warning signs.
Otherwise, the answer to your question, Ghost, is going to be very personal. (Generalizing a personal opinion, Theno; are you insane? No, just being Theno.) This, at least, is my answer.
@Derp said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
@Thenomain said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
I don't read the Hog Pit
And that makes crap-talking a player in a game's advertisement thread appropriate... how, exactly?
You'd have to ask someone who is.
Maybe what you mean is: "Hey, guys, this is an Advertisement thread and we'd like to keep it about the game as much as possible." And less, "You're shit-talking because I say so which makes you not okay, and therefore I get to call you names because you started it, and by the way this is an Advertisement thread."
Now is the above crap-talking, or am I responding equivocally to someone who is bringing insults to a thread where they say insults are happening? It's the latter. Like I said, it will die down shortly. I was pulling Miss Demeanor off this thread with PMs, but if you're going to make me the bad-guy then this mirror here should help identify everyone involved in perpetuating this tangent.
In the meantime, what's been going down lately on this game? I still cannot come up with a concept to save my life.
@Miss-Demeanor said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
If you think she was balanced in Changeling, you neglected to notice the 900+xp she managed to accrue over the course of about 6 months by blatantly abusing the prp system.
By balanced, I mean by the other people in the sphere. She did not succeed in the kind of power-grab that she's accused of doing on other games.
Dude. She drove away Baron. That guy was chill personified.
Baron's player was and still is an intelligent adult who knows his limitations and well knows others, regularly before they know themselves. He worked closely with her to plan and execute the War On Arcadia, which I doubt he would have done if she truly drove him off. He may have needed a break from her. God knows he needed a break from me.
If this happened afterwards, a lot of us stopped playing after the War. This happens on a lot of games when something so emotionally involving becomes emotionally draining and people need a break. So many people taking a break drains the game, which is why on the whole I don't think Big Epic Wars Involving Everyone are good ideas on games. (Firan was kind of an exception as BEWIE were a foundation of the plot.
Well, I stopped playing because my character died of Fluke Dice and I couldn't get back into the game. I watched the dinos leave, and who was left didn't have the same heart and drive that we did.
I know you have a hate-on for Spider, but I saw her far less problematic on HM than I have anywhere else.
--
@Derp said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
I have created a new thread in the Hog Pit
I don't read the Hog Pit. I try to have my discussions with a minimum of shit-flinging and a maximum of discussion, even if that topic sparks passion. This will die down soon, I'm sure.
@faraday said in Identifying Major Issues:
@Thenomain said in Identifying Major Issues:
But how many know that they know, how many would know how to set up and manage multiple accounts with their email client, or know how to find a better client that would do this? How many would give up before getting that far?
But let's back up a step. How many Millennials would even care in the first place?
Find some and ask, and a very mild shame on you for thinking this is about Millennials. This is about barrier to entry and, apparently, being a single person to answer any other person's moving the goalpost. I'm being talked down by a lot of people, but so far nobody else has attempted even a tacit nod toward information gathering. How can we identify issues without escaping--to put it crudely for effect--this echo chamber?
I am clearly not going to be considered by the vocal, but I've done enough project work, enough information gathering, to know that what's going on here is closed-system thinking. My conclusions might be wrong, but I'd rather look further afield and be wrong than say "everyone else does it, therefore it must be right".
Shame. Shall I get the popcorn?
I saw the best brrraaaaaaaaiiiiiins of my generation destroyed by brrraaaaaaaiiiiins,
starving hysterical naked,
Oh, wait, that's Allen Ginsberg.
Who is this zombie whom you are responding to?
@Roz said in Identifying Major Issues:
@Thenomain said in Identifying Major Issues:
I asked my Millenial co-worker how many people he knew would know how to make a secondary email for junk and things and things and junk, to separate their important stuff from other stuff, and he said about one third.
We here are generally very technical people. I expected him to say, "why would anyone have only one email address", but he didn't. I'm not using this as proof that two thirds of "kids these days" are not technically savvy, but as evidence that "not that hard" is a matter of great perspective.
Having multiple email addresses doesn't have to equal technically savvy.
This is why I don't like arguing with geeks. (Note: I am a total geek, and arguing with me is probably not fun either.)
The info I posted (quotes from me are being kept double-quoted to be visually distinct):
I asked my Millenial co-worker how many people he knew would know how to make a secondary email for junk and things and things and junk, to separate their important stuff from other stuff, and he said about one third.
You may disagree with my conclusion, but-- wait, I just saw this.
Did your coworker really say that only one third of millennials would know how to make another email address, or probably have a secondary email address for junk?
Let me say what happened in maybe a clearer way:
I asked him how many people he knew would know how to make a secondary email for junk, and he said about one third.
I know I'm being lightly sarcastic, here, but this is how The Telephone Game starts. I'm terrible at reading comprehension sometimes, myself. I recalled the entire conversation we had, if there's question that I was going into great detail with him. I did not.
I do know plenty of non-tech savvy millennials, but I still think most of them would know how to sign up for an email address.
But how many know that they know, how many would know how to set up and manage multiple accounts with their email client, or know how to find a better client that would do this? How many would give up before getting that far? We have been talking about the barrier of entry, and my repeated point is that "if you don't want to give out your email then just do this incredibly simple thing" is not logically consistent for how difficult people may find it to be, that it may be easy for us but not talking about it because we find it easy and therefore everyone else will find it easy is not good logic.
It's pretty crappy logic.
edit: Worse, it's absolutely horrible design, and can run very counter for recognizing issues.
The bottom line is that @surreality is building a game with certain functions and a level of wiki integration that requires an email.
The bottom line is that @surreality has said on more than one occasion that many functions she can see using are OPT IN, and I have no problem with this. It's not her specifically that I'm talking to (again The Telephone Game rears its ugly head). That said...
If folks have strong objections to using an email, personal or burner, they can play other games and it's not a big deal.
It's not, and I admit this openly and freely and repeatedly. I think it's a stupid thing to need as described almost every occasion in this thread, but that's not the same issue as I'm defending above.
I would say that we kept her balanced on Haunted Memories in Changeling since we had a lot to do and intelligent players, but I see that as the exception.
edit: Once when she was 'elected' Queen of Autumn, about a third of the active Freehold walked out on her Crowning. Okay, about a third of the Freehold walked out on everyone's Crowning. It's very hard to be a leader when a majority of your flock willfully ignore you. I don't think any of us sabotaged her Season rule, though. None of us went that far. I don't think any, or certainly not many, of us wanted to sabotage the game to spite anyone else. I may not have agreed with or sometimes didn't like a bunch of you, but I respected the effort everyone put in. I think we all did, when the smoke cleared.
@Tux said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):
VASpider is playing Gisa.
Thank you for the update. The More We Know(tm).
I asked my Millenial co-worker how many people he knew would know how to make a secondary email for junk and things and things and junk, to separate their important stuff from other stuff, and he said about one third.
We here are generally very technical people. I expected him to say, "why would anyone have only one email address", but he didn't. I'm not using this as proof that two thirds of "kids these days" are not technically savvy, but as evidence that "not that hard" is a matter of great perspective.
Yeah. I know. That's why I went with MMOs. Dork.
And to counter: Every MMO requires a very special app to download and its interface must be taught. This describes every computer game, even. The method which is taught in learned is the opposite of ubiquitous, but it is universal in being the accepted way of doing things. And yet, in the complaints of using telnet, I don't recall anyone really explaining how we are going to get out of this cycle.
You know that I'd love to talk about exactly that with you, but this right now is to make a point and I'm going to be late for work.
@Cobaltasaurus
There is so much A+ in that. I'm not saying dong do it, I was more advertising the next Changeling which might be neat or again might not.