Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...
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@kanye-qwest said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
And yet doctors are shy telling them that their problems come from, e.g., being overweight because they're afraid to lose the business.
the hell they are. Doctors notoriously blame any and everything on weight. Particularly weight in women.
Yeaaaaah, even when weight has nothing to do with anything involved.
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@kanye-qwest said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
And yet doctors are shy telling them that their problems come from, e.g., being overweight because they're afraid to lose the business.
the hell they are. Doctors notoriously blame any and everything on weight. Particularly weight in women.
We know a different set of doctors, then. That's fair. Doctors are still living in a world where there's economic pressure from both above and below that's trying to undermine their expertise (or in the case of your doctors, maybe not?), just like everybody else. The point to Ganymede was that doctors are not exempt from their customers or ignorant business-major overlords pushing them around.
No offense to business majors on the whole, but there's a point where the economics of running a business should take a back seat to the stated goal of running that business. You absolutely need both, but I could write a whole post about how people's expertise blinds them to the necessity of any other part of it.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/26/health/obese-patients-health-care.html
It's not some only-personal-experience anecdote thing she's talking about. There are a TON of credible sources that discuss this as a significant issue.
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Hmmm. You know, I can totally see doctors being reluctant to tell a man that his health could be improved by losing weight.
I concur that anyone who thinks that women aren’t told/ignored due to doctors automatically assume all problems are fat related probably isn’t a woman who’s remotely overweight and tried to go in to the doctors office.
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@mietze I've found it's not just that, it's that... just like the rest of us, doctors try to categorize problems they've seen before. In a way it's like diagnosing a computer issue, they just go through the major factors first ("have you tried turning it off and on again?" "maybe it's a driver issue", etc).
It's also... they probably see and spend a lot more time dealing with people in some severe case or other than they do with somewhat healthy patients with one specific hitch. So for instance when I spoke to a couple of doctors about my lower back maybe getting hurt if I squat, their answer was "well, stop squatting". Gee, thanks doc! That's real helpful - you'll never see me again. But I know where that's coming from; they recurringly deal with regular patients who might have severe mobility issues, delibating diseases etc... and I'm there with something I can just stop doing. It's their easy answer.
So to them saying "yeah, drop some weight" is the equivalent of "yeah, reinstall Windows". It might fix the problem or probably won't make it worse, so from their perspective it's a safe piece of advice! I mean no one ever got sued for malpractice because that was their suggestion, right?
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@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
The point to Ganymede was that doctors are not exempt from their customers or ignorant business-major overlords pushing them around.
Maybe we're talking about different patients too, but my experience is that patients don't question their doctors at all as to whether or not they will be paying a reasonable price for services.
This is probably because many patients are in no condition or position to bargain with doctors.
My point was that patients hardly ever question their doctors when it comes to the reasonableness of price, whereas they are more than happy to give their lawyers and artisans the nth degree about it, as if they have a greater understanding as to how the costs of legal or artistic work are calculated.
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I think the price issue is only because we are heavily used to job subsidized care or nothing at all. So people go in without even thinking of anything beyond the co pay or they don’t go in until it’s dire, knowing they will take a financial hit.
When my older three kids were young we had catastrophic care only with a $5000 deductible and no preventative care. It’s the insurance plan we could afford privately.
You better believe I learned quick to ask what every physician’s cash rate was and how much each service would be discounted if I paid immediately. Everything. I even price shopped for vaccination, switched prescription provider often to get the discount for transfers, etc.
It was hell.
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Not to pull a Surreality, but:
@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
That's fair.
Genuinely thank you for the education, but way to undermine my point to make another.
Which is, you know, pretty typical around here, and by "around here" I mean this thread when people dogpiled on Insomnia for saying that she's broke in a way that they didn't like. Not saying I'm being dogpiled, but I am rolling my eyes at being attached to your post in a way that I didn't like for saying something in a way that you didn't like.
This wouldn't be the first time the medical industry got everything wrong (c.f., not even looking into weight as an issue). Hell, it's fairly recent, probably within most of our lifetimes, that the medical field in America didn't even explore a difference between the medical makeup of men vs. women. When I heard that they were starting to I couldn't think of anything to say for a few dozen seconds, because the idea that the level of detail our medicine goes in didn't consider the difference until the 90s blew my fucking mind.
@ganymede said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
My point was that patients hardly ever question their doctors when it comes to the reasonableness of price, whereas they are more than happy to give their lawyers and artisans the nth degree about it, as if they have a greater understanding as to how the costs of legal or artistic work are calculated.
Do we know how the costs of legal or artistic work are calculated? This is why of every field, I have a prejudice against the business field. The amount of control over things they have little knowledge over baffles my already dizzy brain. They have--rather, should have--a solid foundation as to why things are, but every day I'm pretty much told to make them look good.
I know that is a tangential, almost nonsequiter rant, and I really don't have any animosity against business majors. Except those who make promises in my field that I need to keep.
The real point is, "how do we know what's a reasonable price"?
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@arkandel, that’s not really what many women experience.
It’s more like going in for chest pains, extreme fatigue, night sweats and being patted on the hand and offered an anti-depressant and a referral to a bariatric surgery program (that I wasn’t even close to qualifying for since at that time I was only about 50 lbs overweight. And being told that I’d probable feel better if I looked nice and got more exercise.
I was experiencing autoimmune hemolytic anemia. By the time found a doctor who was willing to believe I was fat not stupid, I needed blood transfusions and probably should have been hospitalized.
Many women have even worse stories to tell.
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@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
The real point is, "how do we know what's a reasonable price"?
There's lots of ways to determine this. That's why I'm an economist, not a business major.
(That's right, motherfuckers, I'm more than just a lawyer.)
You can take this to the bank, but how one determines the reasonable fee of a lawyer is far more of a calculable figure than what happens in the medical field.
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@ganymede said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
The real point is, "how do we know what's a reasonable price"?
There's lots of ways to determine this.
And that's one reason why I treat everyone who sets the cost with some suspicion.
In the tech field, that statement looks like this:
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There's only one standard that matters between the relevant parties.
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@ganymede said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
There's only one standard that matters between the relevant parties.
And this is how the person with either the more experience or the better bullshitter wins, and why I enter negotiations like this knowing that I am neither, and that finding someone to be my advocate means I'm entering negotiations like this.
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Sorry to re-derail the thread yet again, but I thought of something that might be useful. Quoting Gany for brevity but it refers to what mietze and surreality said on the subject, as well.
@ganymede said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
I understand why it is upsetting or frustrating. I had to watch my partner sell herself short too often, and then watch her burn out, and then hold her as she cried and mumbled about how she was very close to offing herself.
But you said your piece, and hopefully your crafter friend will take it to heart.
This is why I've had to learn to separate my self-worth from the worth of my work. When I ask myself what I should charge, I don't think about whether I'm worth some amount of money. I don't think whether my work is good enough to charge for, whether someone else is so much better and they charge this amount so how dare I.
My foremost thought is: what can I get away with? What's the price that the client can pay, what's the going rate for the work, what's the availability of other workers and willingness to work for lower pay. I never, everrrrrr tie it into my self-worth or self-esteem because that way lies misery.
Also, the sky is the limit. If I think someone's ready to pay a sum that's way outside of my realm of thinking, I TAKE IT. I TAKE IT AND DON'T LOOK BACK. Because of my upbringing, I am extremely shy at taking money for my work. I've been raised to do stuff for free out of kindness, or some idea of future favors. This spells financial doom so I've had to reprogram myself in this regard. Of course I'll still do shit for friends for free, but never in a business setting.
I justify this by knowing there'll be times I'll be underpaid, and this way the balance evens out.
Art also has this unfortunate property which ties creativity with self-worth on a deeper level than other professions, at least that's what I've found. Criticism strikes much harder and can really mess with your head. That's why it's so important to divest it from the financial aspect.
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You know, I know what you mean; I have never once asked for payment for coding for this hobby, and only once have I accepted payment for it.
I still have some of that Amazon gift card, @skew. My everlasting thanks.
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@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
No offense to business majors on the whole, but there's a point where the economics of running a business should take a back seat to the stated goal of running that business.
While I agree with this sentiment 100% and was partially a business major. (I had a double major, double minor, half of each set was business related) often times the real goal for the people running the business is the economic part.
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@thatguythere said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
@thenomain said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
No offense to business majors on the whole, but there's a point where the economics of running a business should take a back seat to the stated goal of running that business.
While I agree with this sentiment 100% and was partially a business major. (I had a double major, double minor, half of each set was business related) often times the real goal for the people running the business is the economic part.
You can't do a thing without business, but you can't business without that thing either. They should, in my Ignorant And Stupid world-view, be equal partners.
This discussion really happened yesterday:
- Main Office Guy: Hey, that was absolutely amazing wasn't it!
- Me: Yeah, for the customers and probably for the people who set it up, but for me it increased my stress and reduced my productivity.
- Main Office Guy: Oh...yeah, I guess you're right.
A business doesn't run without more than the economics, unless the business is economics. Many people in the middle don't care to see the big picture, and many people at the end of the line can't possibly see the big picture. Sure, we all want to make money, but we make money by (doing thing). If you don't care about (doing thing), I don't think you deserve to make money.
However, at the higher levels most businesses just deal with other businesses, and what is true and right and proper is decided on a handshake between two people who want to make more money. Hell, I have deep suspicions that the people who make the most money do anything more than have the money and make the rules.
I'm the first to admit that I'm ignorant about it, and that my peeve is just a peeve.
</thenorant>
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@nightshade Agreed re: self-worth vs. work.
Like, I have reasons to be ego queen from hell about some of my stuff, and some people probably would? But that's meh to me, because that 'anybody could do this same thing if they put the work in' belief; it's pretty core and always has been, and keeps things forcibly grounded to the point that it's awkward to a fault for me to mention those things even if someone asks. (Plus, that's just begging for karma to kick you in the ass, IMO.)
The deliberate underselling can shoot somebody in the foot in ways that will prevent them from doing what they love doing eventually -- too much and you can't get new materials, or can't afford the next good sales venue, etc.
So seeing this dude do that, I wanted to shake him, because damn, he was amazingly good. They made under $500; it was $200 for the booth for the weekend, $129/night (x2 nights) for the hotel. Add in food for three people? Yeah, I'd be surprised if the guy broke even -- not even accounting for the materials that went into the pieces he sold, let alone his time or any profit.
If I saw this going down at the little $25/table church or fire hall shows or something, where people are primarily hobbyists not really looking to make an income from it, it'd be one thing (and it's seen all the time there), but this was not that kind of thing. It still ends up being the #1 reason those folks end up having to give it up: they don't account for their actual expenses to do it since these costs don't occur to them until it's too late.
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As someone who does illustration for a living (or tries to), I often would undersell myself too until I tried to think of it in terms of time spent. I can't expect a client to know how much my work is worth if I myself can't even go 'yeah, I think it'll be this amount for this thing'.
I think there's just people who don't understand the work/time involved. $25 US for a commission could work for someone just beginning if took them, say, two hours tops and took little in the way of materials to do. If it takes two hours, it'd be $12.50 an hour, not taking into account any material cost. Bonus if I retain rights to it, but that's more for illustrations, not personal commissions.
Where we get into 'uh no' territory is when it's, say, $25 for a commission that is going to take at least 5 hours after research, fixes, etc. That'd be $5 dollars an hour, for a custom piece of artwork made for one person. That's less than minimum wage in most US states. That's $25 for five hours I can't spend doing something else, whether it be for work or personal things.
A commission to someone for cheap isn't going to get anyone's foot into any door. It just gets me recommended as the artist who'd be willing to do it for cheap. I'd rather reserve lower prices for someone I personally know and trust, a charity needing art pieces for an auction, a project I want to help, etc.
This is my two cents, and I didn't get a chance to read the OP, so this doesn't reflect on anything they may have said.
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@tanyuu said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:
A commission to someone for cheap isn't going to get anyone's foot into any door. It just gets me recommended as the artist who'd be willing to do it for cheap.
It does build up your volume of paid work, which can be important when you're applying for a more serious project. I suppose it depends on your medium and industry. It also depends from case to case. Will this underpaid project look good in my portfolio? Then hell yeah, I'm doing it. If there's some tangible benefit to doing the job, like having to pay rent, then yeah. Again it's about flexibility.
I still don't see the problem with bad word of mouth, since you can put a stop to that with one word: no. Actually it's a benefit to get the word out that you are doing commissions at all. You might get someone hooked in for the price, who will later give you more work (once they see they can rely on you to deliver what they want). Maybe the work this particular client wants is super easy for you to do. You never know. Any word of mouth is good word of mouth, especially when you can fend off the undesirable pricing assumption with just... saying something. This is how you build up a client base and promote yourself.
What I'm saying is, you can sit on your high standards and never get your work off the ground, or you can get the wheels turning through imperfect means. At least this is my personal experience, and what worked out for me. I suppose your mileage may vary, but I hope this perspective helps someone.
I mean, this view comes from someone who is a perfectionist. I had to learn to start small and very much imperfect, if I wanted to get anywhere.
I suppose there's a reason why undercharging and dumping prices is a reality of the business world: it works. If someone shows up in the market offering same quality for lower prices, they're suddenly taking all your clients. But they can't viably continue to provide that kinda quality for that price, nor will they want to. So these things are a blip on the radar and should be regarded as such. It does suck when it happens, but the market is dynamic and shit keeps changing.