Spotlight.
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@arkandel said in Spotlight.:
For example should a ghoul have a near equal chance for prominence in a Vampire game, or a sidekick in a superhero MU*?
(I'm going to focus on this line specifically, because time's still a thing.)
I don't entirely see these as the same thing. The first is primarily based on an inherent power disparity. The second is based more on a role/status disparity -- as there are probably plenty of examples out there of 'sidekick' characters being far more powerful than the person they're a sidekick to (the 'small fluffy thing that turns into a doomship of doomness' from an anime I forget the name of off hand comes to mind here) -- and is more in line with a noble/commoner relationship. Status is relevant in the first example within vampire society, but not in society at large, and this is a noteworthy difference, particularly in a game that focuses on a broader world than just vampire politics (any multisphere game, etc.).
I'm going to point at Game of Thrones here. Samwell definitely starts out in 'sidekick' territory at best. What does he do? The same is true of Bronn, The Hound, Hodor, and Podrick. What do they do?
How different would the story be if they all stayed where they began?
All of them have vital roles to play in the story, and all of them have major moments to shine. Not as many, perhaps, as some of the bigger names, but they're good examples of where my brain is on this topic.
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@three-eyed-crow said in Spotlight.:
@apos said in Spotlight.:
100% the main cause of cliquishness in the hobby is people wanting to limit their exposure to microaggressions and griping like that. This hobby imo is powered entirely by enthusiasm of participants. It is incredibly easy for just a few persistently negative people to pretty much gut a game faster than a Custodius could ever dream of doing so.
Yeah, I'll admit this BS is the primary thing that makes me jaded about the hobby. I think the cheaters and harassers and true bad actors are anomalies. They're terrible, but you ban them and, problem done. But you're going to have to deal with jealousy every day, even from players who are mostly OK a lot of the time. You're going to have to deal with pettiness every day. This stuff is human but it also just really wears me down. I do this for fun, why am I bothering with these people? I tend not to bother when I know what BS awaits me and I'll confess it's changed the way I approach playing, even though I still enjoy it.
Honestly I think more than anything else, Hellfrog's work in trying to counter and minimize that stuff on Arx is the reason for the game's popularity. Of course it still happens, and a lot more than I'd like, but the amount of vaguebookish type of pettiness that results from that stuff imo is smaller and lower key on Arx's channels than games a tenth of its size. Consistently being unafraid to give a heads up to people, 'Hey that was kinda shitty, please don't' even when staffer knows they are gonna get in reply, 'HOW DARE YOU THREATEN MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH, HOW DARE' and dreads the interaction imo is vital. Most of the game isn't on the MSB, and frankly, a lot of players have no idea how petty others can be. It's really exhausting and unfun for staff to police, but if it makes someone go, 'gosh maybe I shouldn't say that shitty thing about someone else's RP' on a channel, I think it's a win.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
It's not enough to be one of the many X-Wing pilots taking part in the assault on the Death Star (which, when you think about it, really already makes them kinda special), they want to be like Luke (making the shot) or Han (taking out Darth Vader so Luke can do it).
The thing is except for Luke, Han and to a lesser extant Wedge, those pilots aren't special. At least not as far as the story of the movie goes. They appear in two scenes and their characters exist to add to a body count. I tend to play characters that are away from the spotlight by personal preference, but if I wanted to play someone special and was told Oh play the fat guy named Porkins that dies in his second scene or the dude who grew up with the main character and dies in his second scene I know my response would be less than polite.
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@thatguythere said in Spotlight.:
The thing is except for Luke, Han and to a lesser extant Wedge, those pilots aren't special. At least not as far as the story of the movie goes. They appear in two scenes and their characters exist to add to a body count. I tend to play characters that are away from the spotlight by personal preference, but if I wanted to play someone special and was told Oh play the fat guy named Porkins that dies in his second scene or the dude who grew up with the main character and dies in his second scene I know my response would be less than polite.
But that's my point... setting aside the dying part, nobody(*) wants to be Porkins or Biggs - or even really Wedge most of the time. They don't want to be hero-adjacent, they want to be the hero.
Which is perfectly fine if you're writing a story of your own. It's even perfectly fine if you're playing a tabletop RPG and the GM can ensure that your particular group of 4-6 people are the most awesomest, most famous adventurers ever. But the scale breaks down when you have 30 players all wanting to be the Luke-and-Leia level of heroes. @surreality points out that even second-tier characters in GoT get their moments sometimes, and that's true, but nobody(*) wants to only get one or two cool things to do over the lifespan of their character. They want to be Daenerys or Jon Snow.
It just doesn't work. Starring roles are limited. Everybody(*) desperately wants one, and then they get bent out of shape when they get passed over.
(*) - Broad sweeping generalization, not literally everybody/nobody.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
@surreality points out that even second-tier characters in GoT get their moments sometimes, and that's true, but nobody(*) >wants to only get one or two cool things to do over the lifespan of their character. They want to be Daenerys or Jon Snow.
It just doesn't work. Starring roles are limited. Everybody(*) desperately wants one, and then they get bent out of shape when they get passed over.
I think what happens is that, sometimes, people are playing at different scales. No one wants to get one or two cool things to do, but some people think smaller victories in their areas of interest are cool enough, while other people aren't happy unless they save the world twice in a weekend. The same character who just shows up to give the real hero their sword can be the hero of their own story, it's just a matter of POV. You can have fun playing a regular beat cop in a world of superheroes, as long as the superheroes don't actually step in to catch every single criminal out there.
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But that's my point... setting aside the dying part, nobody(*) wants to be Porkins or Biggs - or even really Wedge most of the time. They don't want to be hero-adjacent, they want to be the hero.
But in the post I replied you you said:
@faraday said in Spotlight.:. It's not enough to be one of the many X-Wing pilots taking part in the assault on the Death Star (which, when you think about it, really already makes them kinda special),
That seem to me like you are telling people to be happy with being the bit parts, which means some will be but a lot will not, it doesn't matter how many or few players a game has, if you think table tops are immune from this because the numbers are small you have had a much different experience both playing and running than I have. I run for a group of 4 to 6 folks that I have in person known for decades and the issues come up that is human nature.
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I think, if a game offers roster characters, it's not unreasonable to believe that the character will have the opportunity to be a hero at some point. A roster character is, in effect, officially sanctioned. If this is not the case, there should be a huge WARNING: SPEAR CARRIER across the top of the page.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
They don't want to be hero-adjacent, they want to be the hero.
Which is perfectly fine if you're writing a story of your own. It's even perfectly fine if you're playing a tabletop RPG and the GM can ensure that your particular group of 4-6 people are the most awesomest, most famous adventurers ever. But the scale breaks down when you have 30 players all wanting to be the Luke-and-Leia level of heroes. @surreality points out that even second-tier characters in GoT get their moments sometimes, and that's true, but nobody(*) wants to only get one or two cool things to do over the lifespan of their character. They want to be Daenerys or Jon Snow.
It just doesn't work. Starring roles are limited. Everybody(*) desperately wants one, and then they get bent out of shape when they get passed over.
I think MU players of any... veteran degree are going to understand that being the star all the time, or even ever (if we're talking Luke level), is impossible and would be quite happy to settle for something along the lines of the GoT secondary cast. Heck, a lot of MU players are used to such degrees of abuse, disregard, and favoritism that something remotely fair would be pretty amazing. I'm just not sure this is what actually is being offered, and that people are turning their nose up at Sam.
What I think people tend to get rankled over is when A) they don't get to be Jon and yet someone else does (ie there are some very clear star players, and almost certainly some favoritism at work) and/or B) they sign up to be that supporting cast member, but their 'big moments' amount to 'well you get your name in a list of names in a post/emit that one time.'
And I'm sure its mostly a staff size / resource problem. But when things are scarce, they do tend to go to the inner circle of staff-alts and close friends.
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@thatguythere said in Spotlight.:
That seem to me like you are telling people to be happy with being the bit parts, which means some will be but a lot will not, it doesn't matter how many or few players a game has
I'm not telling anybody to be anything, I'm just making an observation about why MU players want the spotlight, in response to Ark's question.
But setting aside the whole "they all got killed" thing, I do think that being one of the few pilots in the rebellion who get to participate in the final epic battle against the Death Star is a "special" thing.
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@bored said in Spotlight.:
I think MU players of any... veteran degree are going to understand that being the star all the time, or even ever (if we're talking Luke level), is impossible and would be quite happy to settle for something along the lines of the GoT secondary cast.
You would think so! And yet I can think of multiple examples of people who had roles everyone in this thread would consider "starring" in plots that have complained bitterly about not getting enough spotlight when someone else got attention (and you know what, folks, when you do this in a semi-open setting, do not assume it won't get around, you are wrong). I mean, those are the unreasonable people you can't make happy no matter what, but I don't think they're as much a minority as one would like to think.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
But setting aside the whole "they all got killed" thing, I do think that being one of the few pilots in the rebellion who get to participate in the final epic battle against the Death Star is a "special" thing.
I don't know! Sometimes I think I might prefer playing a janitor with a real chance at meaningfully affecting the cleanliness levels of the Death Star than playing a pilot who is basically just set dressing in a battle they have no real chance of affecting in any meaningful way, other than by exploding prettily against a backdrop of stars.
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@peasoupling said in Spotlight.:
I don't know! Sometimes I think I might prefer playing a janitor with a real chance at meaningfully affecting the cleanliness levels of the Death Star than playing a pilot who is basically just set dressing in a battle they have no real chance of affecting in any meaningful way, other than by exploding prettily against a backdrop of stars.
Back up though... if this were a MUSH scene and not an already-written movie script (which I know makes it an imperfect example), who says that Porkins couldn't affect the battle in any meaningful way? I mean, yes, only one person can score the WINNING hit on the exhaust port, but it's not like everyone else is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs. There are TIE fighters to take out, turrets to dodge...
That's the issue I see with MU players. Everybody (again - generalizing, because like @Three-Eyed-Crow says it's not as much of a minority as folks might want to believe) wants to be the ONE GUY that does the uber special thing, and there just aren't enough uber special things to go around.
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@peasoupling Someone had to clean up all that Wookie fur, as long as it was I'm sure he sheds enough to weave together a Wookie coat. Imagine the air filters on the Millennium Falcon ...
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
Back up though... if this were a MUSH scene and not an already-written movie script (which I know makes it an imperfect example), who says that Porkins couldn't affect the battle in any meaningful way? I mean, yes, only one person can score the WINNING hit on the exhaust port, but it's not like everyone else is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs. There are TIE fighters to take out, turrets to dodge...
It really does depend on how far we stretch the analogy, I guess. Is the battle solely dependent on Luke's rolls? Does anything change at all if Porkins actually takes out those tie-fighters?
"Participating in the final epic battle" can be special, but not if you're so focused on the Luke level of things that everything else is just kinda there to be decorative. If Porkins's actions can have meaningful consequences, even if it's very unlikely they'll say whether the battle is won or lost, that's great.
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@peasoupling said in Spotlight.:
It really does depend on how far we stretch the analogy, I guess. Is the battle solely dependent on Luke's rolls? Does anything change at all if Porkins actually takes out those tie-fighters?
It really does, and I'm not meaning to tunnel vision on this particular analogy. But I think it's useful, because it deals with the aspect of having realistic expectations.
Let's say that 12 people show up for the Death Star battle MU scene. I think it's utterly impractical to give all of them Luke levels of impact. But if only one of them gets the killing blow on the Big Bad, does that really mean that everyone else is just window dressing? I don't think so. And how many Epic Big Bads can you really expect a game to have, if you expect staff to spread the Hero Time around?
Nobody wants to feel like window dressing. But not everybody can have Luke levels of Hero Time either. I think MUSHers need to accept the middle ground in there more than they typically do.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
@peasoupling said in Spotlight.:
It really does depend on how far we stretch the analogy, I guess. Is the battle solely dependent on Luke's rolls? Does anything change at all if Porkins actually takes out those tie-fighters?
It really does, and I'm not meaning to tunnel vision on this particular analogy. But I think it's useful, because it deals with the aspect of having realistic expectations.
Let's say that 12 people show up for the Death Star battle MU scene. I think it's utterly impractical to give all of them Luke levels of impact. But if only one of them gets the killing blow on the Big Bad, does that really mean that everyone else is just window dressing? I don't think so. And how many Epic Big Bads can you really expect a game to have, if you expect staff to spread the Hero Time around?
Nobody wants to feel like window dressing. But not everybody can have Luke levels of Hero Time either. I think MUSHers need to accept the middle ground in there more than they typically do.
I think the big difference is that, in a MU* RP scenario, the whole scene wouldn't just be following Luke the entire time. That's what would really make other players feel like window dressing. But if everyone is a part of the process of fighting through the enemy, if it's not just following Luke the whole time with the forgone conclusion that he's going to be the one to successfully take that final shot -- yeah, I think that could still be a pretty badass scene for everyone involved, even if only one person ends up with the final killshot.
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@faraday said in Spotlight.:
@peasoupling said in Spotlight.:
It really does depend on how far we stretch the analogy, I guess. Is the battle solely dependent on Luke's rolls? Does anything change at all if Porkins actually takes out those tie-fighters?
It really does, and I'm not meaning to tunnel vision on this particular analogy. But I think it's useful, because it deals with the aspect of having realistic expectations.
Let's say that 12 people show up for the Death Star battle MU scene. I think it's utterly impractical to give all of them Luke levels of impact. But if only one of them gets the killing blow on the Big Bad, does that mean that everyone else is just window dressing? And how many Epic Big Bads can you really expect a game to have, if you expect staff to spread the Hero Time around?
Well, I don't need to play Luke, at all. I'd probably rather not, most of the time. So I'm not really asking who gets the killing blow, that's not so much the issue for me, unless it's always Luke.
My question is: Is it even possible for one of the other ones to get the killing blow? If not, can they make it easier for Luke to get the killing blow in a meaningful way? Can they mitigate negative consequences, reduce losses, whatever? If not, then no, just participating isn't special at all. In a movie, having a few lines is all you need, but in a game, if there's no chance to affect the outcome beyond your own personal existence, you're not so much a secondary character, you're an extra. And that's never special.
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@peasoupling said in Spotlight.:
My question is: Is it even possible for one of the other ones to get the killing blow? If not, can they make it easier for Luke to get the killing blow in a meaningful way? Can they mitigate negative consequences, reduce losses, whatever? If not, then no, just participating isn't special at all. In a movie, having a few lines is all you need, but in a game, if there's no chance to affect the outcome beyond your own personal existence, you're not so much a secondary character, you're an extra. And that's never special.
I agree. But that's exactly what I'm talking about... it's not enough that they had a chance to get the killing shot and missed. The sheer fact that someone else got the Hero Moment causes epic levels of jealousy. I've run dozens upon dozens of combat scenes (across different games) where there was no pre-ordained "Luke" and I've seen it more times than I care to think about. It's like if you don't get to be a complete badass, you may as well have stayed home. I think that's a bad attitude to have, and it's alarmingly prevalent.
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@bored said in Spotlight.:
I think MU players of any... veteran degree are going to understand that being the star all the time, or even ever (if we're talking Luke level), is impossible and would be quite happy to settle for something along the lines of the GoT secondary cast.
I've come to the opinion that there are no true stars in the best stories, and the most compelling tales to participate in are the ones where you really aren't the centerpiece.
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@three-eyed-crow If you have situations where everyone is getting great, fun, interactive roles in a plot and lots of attention and they still flip out? One of two things is happening: either they're dicks (which is possible, but I don't think this is the entire population and I'm willing to design assuming it's not), or the situation isn't as fulfilling as it appears - it's not actually that even (maybe due to factors outside of the scene), a player is having goals met that aren't important to them, etc.
I think going back to the player types can be instructive here. If you have a pair of Killers in a scene, obviously its very easy to create a situation where both can 'win big' but one will be unhappy because their opponents aren't equal, or there's only a single killing blow opportunity, or whatever. So you need to sort those players into different groups, or make sure they have multiple powerful opponents, etc. Conversely, the Achiever might be happy to let the Killer smite the monster only to go on and perform the final ritual that seals the whatever.
The lesson here is that you need some fairly specific GM-player customization and personalization, which may require a lower player to staff ratio... but maybe there are other ways. Systems for people actually putting goals on their sheet and staff directly addressing them, etc?