Open Sheets?
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When we talk about "PvP" do we also include things like opposing leaders of organizations, and how they allocate their resources, including where and what kind? For example, someone is hiring mercenaries to be a surprise attack, investing in new technologies, or has deeper cash or morale reserves to draw upon than ever expected?
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Ugh, has this really already devolved into "There's no reason why anyone would want to do things other than the way I prefer"? Like. Really? No room for "different types of games have different needs" and "different types of players play in different ways"?
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@three-eyed-crow I never said liking it or not had ANYTHING to do with the player quality and neither did anyone else. The player quality was based around your ability to not metagame even if you knew everything
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@misadventure This is probably not something that would be tracked on a +sheet persay but more likely done in +jobs
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Not all games do things the same way.
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@magee101 There are lots of great players who still don't actually love the process of trying to second-guess whether it makes sense for them to have come to an IC conclusion they knew about OOC. Good players absolutely don't want to metagame, but they can also recognize that it can be hard to avoid doing it subconsciously and also exhausting the continually second-guess themselves. It's not as simple as "If your players are good they won't use that info." There are plenty of reasons why players who don't want to metagame would still prefer some information being kept hidden from them on certain types of games.
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@roz I whole heartedly agree and even said there are so many qualifications for a good player that the direct comparison was all I was using. Heck there are times when metagaming almost needs to be done or could be done to have more fun. I have had my DnD players metagame slightly to avoid playerwipes and the like. Good counter point, I should have prefaced all my posts earlier with "in my opinion"
ETA: The thing about open +sheets is that if you dont enjoy second guessing or knowing everything you dont have to engage in studying other people's sheets but people that do prefer that style of play will be more comfortable that the option is there.
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@magee101 Assuming no particular set of code tools in use and a choice, would those sorts of factors be expected to be hidden or open knowledge in a game?
Examples might be the British Radar in the Battle of Britain, and the diving depth capacities of US submarines in the WW2 Pacific theater. These things are like powers.
I know what I would do, but I don't expect everyone to feel or do the same. I do know that true "player vs player" (as opposed to character vs character) conflict specifically focusses on trying to outguess, surprise and counter your opposition. This can be completely open, such as in chess, or almost obscured such as in a fighting video game.
That sort of contesting can be translated into character versus character, but it has to be written into the mechanisms and play style of the game.
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@roz Most posts have been clear on that front, so I must have missed any broad assertions that there's a 'one true way' from a wide array of posters.
That said, I do think people do this anyway, all the time, as a normal part of gaming. While people talk about how annoying it is that somebody didn't read the books/watch the show/read the theme files for the game they're playing on, most have or do.
Almost universally, these documents or source material include a wide array of very important things that the players know, and the characters (or any specific character) do not or cannot.
The majority of players are already accustomed to this. It's already baked-in. If someone says or does something they wouldn't know as their character IC, wrists get slapped for it; that's also already baked in. We have all survived this or we wouldn't still be here doing this at all.
As a result, ultimately, this is not a question of people being able or unable to do this, or us not having means of dealing with it if the issue arises. It's a question of how fine-grained we want to get regarding transparency or secrecy.
It will work differently for different games and different players. This isn't really a matter of it being exhausting to suss out, though.
"Dude, your char wouldn't know that, that's not public info." "D'oh, my bad!" is not a world-ending crisis.
Neither is, "Hey, how would your character know that?" "<reasons>/Oh, shit, you're right, I wouldn't, sorry! Reposing now!" "OK, cool!"
Both of the above are pretty common in healthy game communities, regardless of their stance on this. Fostering a healthy game community in which the above exchanges are the beginning and the end of it, without snarling accusations of cheating at people who simply brain-farted, or people being terrified to provide any RP hooks that hinge on secret information IC, is far more important than any call someone could or ever will make on how fine-grained they go on providing information in the first place.
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@surreality said in Open Sheets?:
@roz Most posts have been clear on that front, so I must have missed any broad assertions that there's a 'one true way' from a wide array of posters.
No, I didn't say it was a wide array of posters, but I was expressing annoyance at this back and forth:
@magee101 said in Open Sheets?:
TBH even in a PVP game there is no reason there should be an OOC Masq. The only times it really matters is assholes who metagame, guess what, you're not going to stop them from metagaming even if you try and hide every piece of info.
@admiral said in Open Sheets?:
There's no reason for open sheets in any circumstance anyways, aside from staff-lite games that require players to police each other.
...because I think that general attitude is unhelpful. Yes, I do know that most of us are all accustomed to "Don't use OOC information IC" and that it can often be not a big a deal. I was just saying that there are different preferences, and that I don't think it's fair to say that a good player has to equal one who prefers open sheets because they'd never metagame. In a situation where IC information and secrecy is delicate, plenty of good players may still prefer not having the info OOC. And for some people that is a bit exhausting, as expressed here:
@insomniac7809 said in Open Sheets?:
I don't like having to keep what I IC know from what I OOC know separate beyond what I have to and I really don't like trying to second-guess whether my PC could have figured out what I already know to be the case OOC.
...which is a sentiment I also feel personally in my own play.
All I'm saying is that both of these perspectives -- people who prefer closed sheets vs open sheets -- have pros and cons and neither is inherently indicative of player or game quality.
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@roz said in Open Sheets?:
All I'm saying is that both of these perspectives -- people who prefer closed sheets vs open sheets -- have pros and cons and neither is inherently indicative of player or game quality.
Totally agree. It's a preference thing.
I, for instance, love metagaming.
Trying to run into a new character for RP? Oh - look, your sheet says your guy is into playing basketball. So's mine. Let's run into each other on the basketball court.
Looking for story hooks? Wow - your guy's got a really interesting dark secret that intersects with mine. Let's work together to make a cool story about that.
It's only inherently bad if it's abused. When used for good, it can be great.
I can totally understand the preference of wanting to maintain the mystery and put blinders on to information your character doesn't know for immersion/easier tracking/etc. That's cool. This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's a question of different play styles.
And to the "why would you want to know the story of a movie beforehand?" comments (which I can't find now) ... for me a MUSH isn't like a movie that you're watching, it's a story that you're writing. I wouldn't sit down with a co-author of a novel all: "ZOMG don't tell me anything about those characters!" That would be absurdly ineffective. I understand not everyone views MUSHes that way -- it's the age-old story/game continuum. But it might help to illuminate why some folks would want to know more details while others might consider it more like spoilers.
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@faraday said in Open Sheets?:
And to the "why would you want to know the story of a movie beforehand?" comments (which I can't find now) ...
@admiral said in Open Sheets?:
However, back on the topic of open sheets... why do you need to see my sheet? What do you gain from knowing so much that your character doesn't? Do you like to read wikipedia entries about a movie's plot before you go see it to prime yourself? Do you enjoy it when staffers who run scenes tell you all the backstory of what's going on up front? I'd assume not. You don't need to see every little detail about my character. Maybe I want to reveal my character's abilities, aptitudes, and motivations through my RP. Open sheets take that away entirely.
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@faraday Yep, that. My preference as well.
RL, I talk about scheming in this context. I hate scheming against people. I love scheming for people.
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As the person who said they noticed an increase in quality players in an open sheet system, I am talking about the perception that someone could fact check you significantly cutting down on the following behaviors:
*weird ooc lying about stats, whether that's the guy in the ooc room telling everyone hes a badass, to people who RP and brag oocly about their PC having the social and diplomatic skills of Madame de Pompadour but are actually more on the level of Elliot Rodger when it comes to how they've invested in their PC.
*People constantly convinced (with the whining and/or overcompensating that follows) about how they are The Most Underpowered PC On The Game So They Cant Do Anything With Anyone But Mope. Yes, there will always be people who freak the fuck out when they cant throw 4 million dice at something like they're use to on their last high powered WoD game; but when people can see that oh wow everyone's in the same boat, and see for themselves (or know that they could if they wanted to) what the spread of differing "levels" of old and new PC are...they seem to relax more quickly. Also, honestly? As someone who is real mechanics challenged, it's been kind of nice in the past to have gotten asked after a scene "hey, I noticed you were frustrated about not getting x to work, would you like some mechanics advice? I see some ways that would be an easy way to improve that."
*ST for a PrP being surprised with a shitload of power inappropriate to the scene they're running and having to deal with that after the action has started. Of course this requires that they care/are attentive in the first place, open sheets dont magically fix that.
*the perpetual problem of people getting offended you dont know public stuff about them, but they havent updated their +finger/info or wiki since chargen.
I find that transparency tends to set up a more collaborative environment. You can have that with secret sheets and no wiki/finger info in a hard PvP environment, though, I've seen it happen.
And I dont think sheet transparency is a great thing in non-consent games where staff is inattentive/unavailable, and where there is no sense of community.
Maybe that is why on the whole I have found a better caliber of ooc player behaviors on games with open sheets, they have all tended to be smaller with a better sense of ooc community.
I am a grumpy ass old lady now, quite literally. If I log on to a game, I like it to be a polite, collegial ooc environment, and there to be a minimum of impediments to being able to get playing with others and getting my ic risk taking on. Things that spread the ST load/ability to people beyond the (usually understaffed/overworked/stressed out) staffers on a game seem to help it stay afloat longer.
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@mietze Yeah, I didn't really take issue with your posts before, because I can see all your points and find them reasonable. I think both sides can absolutely contribute to different atmospheres and enhance different types of games, and it's absolutely reasonable to talk about how that plays out in practice. (I was only objecting to the idea slipping out from some others of "there's no reason to ever want open sheets" vs "there's no reason to ever want private sheets" like there aren't pros for people to like about both of them.)
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@mietze said in Open Sheets?:
Would I want it on a huge impersonal ten alts for every player pvp disconnected/uninvolved staff game, no.
This is actually the type of game I would most want open sheets on. If Staff is uninvolved, you have no way of knowing if the player of the character your character is trying to kill is lying about their stats. Unless the game has open sheets, then you know for sure.
@Three-Eyed-Crow brought up another great reason for open sheets: Newbie directing. I love being able to say "check out the sheets of <three characters> who are also heavy-weapons Marines" (or whatever the role they're apping is). Not only can they see what stats all three have, but they can also see what sub-niches the three characters are filling, so they don't double up.
Heck, Ares even goes one better than this: you can see what every character in the game has in action skills with a single command. It's brilliant. So you want your character to be good but not great with a pistol? Check the levels of every other character in the game with pistols and find a happy medium. It also lets you know if Staff tends to allow near-maxed stats, or if they prefer to keep the range lower.
@Tinuviel I get annoyed by GMs rolling dice for me too (unless I've screwed up the command or can't figure it out, of course). Like, that's my fun, let me have it.
Another reason that I like open sheets (but not BGs/Details of Secrets/whatever) is that they can help bring characters together. Like, if you see another character with "Lacrosse" as a BG skill, you can work out that your characters maybe play in a rec league together (or have played against one another, if you don't want to assume more than acquaintanceship). ETA: Oh look, @faraday beat me to this point. I am not surprised.
To @Admiral and the others backing the "Surprise" view of why closed sheets are good, I get that. Totally do. Some of the best RP I've had has come when I and my character were surprised. I've just gotten used to having to be surprised by what other characters do rather than what they are. It loses something, I totally admit. I just think the trade-off is worth it. Y'all don't, and that's cool.
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Unfortunately what I think is much more likely to happen (at least this has been my experience) in heavy pvp with little to no staff attention is that people tend to hunt for the weakest looking person when they get bored and want to amuse themselves by pkill Or, they make sure their incoming friends (or their new pc) is built specifically to take out the person they have an ooc grudge hard on for.
It's not that this doesn't happen on secret sheet places, people get friends on staff to take a peek, or they know some of the powers held based on other actions.
In that type of ooc environment I think it would be good to have an ability to not have all cards on the table, for people who would oocly sift to find more defeatable pcs to go after.
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@mietze said in Open Sheets?:
Unfortunately what I think is much more likely to happen (at least this has been my experience) in heavy pvp with little to no staff attention is that people tend to hunt for the weakest looking person when they get bored and want to amuse themselves by pkill Or, they make sure their incoming friends (or their new pc) is built specifically to take out the person they have an ooc grudge hard on for.
Yes. People are cowards.
On HM - where XP accumulated endlessly and there was a real dino problem if I ever saw one - it happened all the time; oldbies would not only never target other oldbies, they would in fact d never even target people who had been around for a little while. Sure, the chances a 300 XP guy would take out your 800 XP one is small but if RNG goes the wrong way it could happen so fuck that; they bullied newbies instead.
If not they would get a few of their friends over to intimidate the fuck out of that person or, of course, send in pages to tell them in a 'friendly' OOC way what a big mistake it would be to oppose them, you know, as a courtesy. We wouldn't want anything bad to happen, would we.
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@roz said in Open Sheets?:
Ugh, has this really already devolved into "There's no reason why anyone would want to do things other than the way I prefer"? Like. Really? No room for "different types of games have different needs" and "different types of players play in different ways"?
Doesn't it always?
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@misadventure To me, those things would be hidden until properly researched ICly by opposing factions.