Couples who MU together

[surreality]

@mietze said:

@skew said:

I also can't stand the OOC angst, anger, snide comments, etc, that I've seen an OCC/RL partner pull, when the other partner's IC persona is flirted with!

I don't know. I've seen that far more strong/toxic from online-only people than I ever have with MUing couples (though of course there are exceptions). But all the most crazy ass attacking people for messing with their "wo/man" and +where stalking and all that? Almost exclusively online only people.

Thirding this.

I suspect it's stronger in these cases because this is the only connection these couples have. When there's an RL co-habitation thing going on, you can get whatever reassurance you may need that your partner is 'still there' and so on by just looking across the room, if that's something you feel you need to be reassured about. (As in, when said partner is still sitting there eating a bowl of cereal in his underwear, being super glam sexy, as they most assuredly do while watching cartoons on youtube, you know he hasn't run off with that hussy.)

That's the kind of emotional security that people get very weird and fickle about online, if online's all they've got -- which is something I can wrap my head around and understand, even if it sends me over the moon bonkers when I have to put up with the absurd extremes of it.

(I have my own cereal-eating, cartoon-watching-in-his-underwear guy. I don't need somebody else's.)

[mietze]

Also I hope that if the report of "my partner doesn't like you doing that" is taken with...hmmm. A little bit of salt. I've seen a lot of people fall for the "you are my escape from this awful controlling man/woman". I do know one person who'd ask her partner to please put a lid on certain interactions, and he would court/cultivate them in response. (I've seen that in online partnerships plenty though too). I've found it best to stay away from people engaging in unhealthy power play like that. I don't want to be the source of some ass getting off on poking at their partner.

[saosmash]

Yeah, I mean, people with unhealthy relationships with each other using MU** as a way to punish/manipulate/otherwise damage their already unhealthy relationship is shitty to everyone, both the partner in question and the innocent bystanders. That said, I think to assume that the shitty behavior is coming just because people happen to be a couple in RL is probably a mistake.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Sunny said:

Most of the couples I know, they're not even remotely a problem. A lot of the time you'd never know without someone telling you. There are a few loud couples, but for the most part enh. The few toxic ones I know, one person in the relationship or the other is toxic beyond just that.

I definitely think this is one of those things where you tend to only notice the obnoxious cases, unless the couple-players make a point of telling people about it. So it's one of those things that seems more annoying than it is, because you generally only notice it when you're dealing with specifically annoying people and not the rando couple who just plays the game like normal folk.

[Lithium]

My partner and I play on a MUSH together, as a couple. We also have characters that are not involved. A couple playing together is no different than any other two people who know each other playing together.

My friend who got me into MU*'s and I used to play together in the early 90's. Most of the time our characters had each other's backs, but sometimes they were enemies (best enemy I've ever had in a game honestly, because the story was the point not ending the other character).

Trying to segregate against couples or people who know each other RL is against the whole idea of the gaming group. The whole point is to create connections and stories together and it's /not/ alts being used to benefit one another, it's two different people.

If you tried to limit that then you'd have to say nobody could benefit anybody, ever, cuz they might know that person RL and be their friend!

...

As for the other thing about couples who are weirding out the gaming group, that's something else entirely but that happens with some people regardless of their relationship status. Not everyone is going to mesh well, not everything is going to be acceptable to everyone, and sometimes you have to know when to put some distance between yourself and the thing which is ruining your enjoyment for your enjoyments sake.

[Wolfsong]

This is another sitaution where I've seen the good and the bad sides of some of these sitautions. I've Mu*ed on various games with my partner for a good many years. Yes, we have some characters who have come together as couples, but usually we have far more non-partnered characters. Do our alts come across each other? Sure. It happens.

I don't really see an issue with it, so long as you have a wider RP pool than just your partner. (The same goes for Rping with your friends, tbh.) In fact, most of my characters, even those in relationships, Rp more with people outside of their relationships than they do within them. But I might just be an oddball in that regard.

Alas, I've also experienced some bad OOC reactions from other players when it comes to playing on the same game as my partner. The worst being when the sins of one partner being taken out on another. (Your partner said this and you didn't tell him to stop so you must be horrible too! or I hate so-and-so and you're married to them so I won't RP with you/interact with you/let you progress either!)

In any case, no, I don't think that couples should be treated as alts for each other. As others have said, it's no different than friends playing together. But honestly, I'm an individual, and I prefer to be judged by my individual RP and actions, not by my connection to my partner.

[Arkandel]

The only problem here is in generalizing anything based on people's associations.

It's not even that different a conversation than the one(s) we had before about cliques - it's still discussing an in-crowd, just on a smaller scale. It's a meaningless practice because there are always going to be both small groups of tightly knit people who are close or spend tons of time together chatting/playing - that's just human behavior.

[Misadventure]

There is the other problem: not realizing that just because you, your spouse, your RL friends, and close online friends are in agreement, does not make you right, or your way the only way.

[Lithium]

@Misadventure said:

There is the other problem: not realizing that just because you, your spouse, your RL friends, and close online friends are in agreement, does not make you right, or your way the only way.

I am not sure what you mean by this. If a place wants to say I cannot play with my partner and that we have to follow the rules for 'alts' then chances are my partner won't want to play there at all. Problem solved. She's not as invested into these games as I am since she's been playing them only off and on for little more than two years.

Would it bug me? Depends on how it was presented and the attitude taken. I may continue to play a game that did that, I may not. Nobody is saying people don't have the right to run their game however they so choose.

So I don't know how it is a 'problem'.

[Arkandel]

@Lithium It depends on the rules. For example on KD I couldn't +vote for my spouse's character because we shared IPs, but that was a code limitation. Asherat did let me know I could ask her to +vote on my behalf, so there was a workaround, but one could have chosen to take that as discrimination even though it was unintentional.

[Lithium]

@Arkandel said:

@Lithium It depends on the rules. For example on KD I couldn't +vote for my spouse's character because we shared IPs, but that was a code limitation. Asherat did let me know I could ask her to +vote on my behalf, so there was a workaround, but one could have chosen to take that as discrimination even though it was unintentional.

I'm not seeing how that's a problem other than the code limitation. I've been on games like that also with my partner and honestly, we don't tend to vote each other even on games where we can.

A problem, to me, is when something is wrong. Incorrect. Not functioning properly. If the rules are written in such a way as to limit a couple, then those are the rules and there's no problem.

If someone is bound and determined to cheat, they will find a way, such as masking their IP's or whatever, so realistically there's only so much we can do on that front anyways.

[Misadventure]

@lithium I am talking about the problem of the echo chamber effect. Nothing to do with couples being treated as alts.

Its a major source of cries of "favoritism": the people involved have had a chance to speak on many related topics and come to an understanding of one another. Makes for much more effective and efficient communication, and gets rid of the sense that you have no idea what to do when dealing with a ST or other player.

[flahgenstow]

I find it strange when couples play on a game and then have IC relationships (and sex) with other players.

[Lithium]

@flahgenstow

Why?

Characters are not real.
They are not who we are.
There should be a separation of IC and OOC.

Some couples and individuals can understand this, and take it for what it is, RP. It is no more threatening than two people writing a book together /unless/ someone tries to cross the line from game to RL. Then it can become a problem but that kind of stuff happens RL even without MU*'s.

It's ok for you to feel that it's not for you, and in that case don't have your character get involved with someone's character whom you know to be in a relationship... but... lots and lots of people have significant others who do not partake of these games, and you'd never know unless they told you.

It's also something that needs to be decided for that couple to determine what's good for them. Nobody else has any say in that one really.

[Arkandel]

@flahgenstow said:

I find it strange when couples play on a game and then have IC relationships (and sex) with other players.

My characters do stuff my wife would generally frown upon iRL all the time. They murder people for starters. They steal stuff.

But as to the specific rules of engagement for sexual matters (or TS), that's up to each relationship to figure out. There's no right or wrong let alone a general rule that fits them all.

[Warma Sheen]

I'll echo @flahgenstow and say I also find it strange. But also point out that he didn't say it was wrong. I'm sure he meant, like I do, that I don't particularly understand that mindset. But I what other couples do is between them, obviously. None of my business.

[Lithium]

@Warma-Sheen I don't find it strange because when it comes down to it, TS is just porn. Written dirty stories that may, or may not, have impact upon the characters lives depending on a whole bunch of other circumstances.

Couples watch porn together, but then some people are anti-porn, or afraid to admit they like it.

I also never claimed he said it was wrong, I honestly want to know the 'why' of it, same question I'd put to you, why do you find it strange?

I am honestly curious not trying to be argumentative, just opening a dialogue with why I feel the opposite.

[Warma Sheen]

@Lithium I think its my own inability to get into a mindset where I get or give those things that are so great about my relationship to someone outside of my significant other. I'm old school, I guess, where once you make a commitment with someone certain things are kept only between you and them. For example, I could understand a threesome (either kind) before I understand an open relationship or swapping. I just kind of believe there's certain things you only have with your SO or you share together and whether other things or people are included, you still do it together. I can understand couples that watch porn together. I don't understand it when one person in the couple watches it on their own.

As a caveat, I'll also add that all of the above is assuming my idea of a good, solid relationship. I can understand breaking from the above if someone isn't feeling fulfilled, or is feeling ignored, or is missing something intimate or personal to the point that they look for it outside of the relationship.

[mietze]

I think the discomfort for a lot of people comes from the intrusion (in their own mind) of OOC knowledge that makes them feel uncomfortable.

I think it's safe to assume that a lot of MUSHing folks are partnered. (Hopefully we've moved beyond the stereotype of weird can't make real friends people living in their relative's basement by now) So yes, in a sense if you are TSing someone you are very likely TSing someone else's partner. But most people don't think about that that much (Except if they engage in casual friendly OOC chatting with people, so you might hear about something neat that happened or an anniversary or something like that, occasionally) because they know there's some separation there.

If it's on the same game, I think for a lot of people there may be a bit of worry that crops up. Not because they think horrible thoughts about the two people, but my god have we not all seen the craziness and destruction that can happen with jealousy over play partners that are online only. I do think it's not unnatural to worry a little about having to deal with more ooc drama as well if things go south, or to be used in the event of OOC drama between them, ect. It's another layer of discomfort to deal with, potentially. Reaching out just in the context of online play partners is often pretty hard to get started (I've never had an unfriendly or unapproving response to it, only positive though, and it's still hard for whatever reason to take that 'risk' but it's important for me to do so). I think there would be a greater degree of awkward in approaching someone because you worry about the OOC relationship, because that might make them feel weird or seem intrusive.

I have never experienced it, but I can empathize with that angle. Not sure if that's what @flahgenstow and @Warma-Sheen necessarily find odd. Whenever I get involved in any kind of IC household with someone (which does not necessarily have romantic aspects to it) I prefer to talk to everyone else in the household so that I can be sure of my welcome and also to let them know I'm looking forward to playing with the whole group, not just a specific individual and am just tolerating the rest. I'm not sure if I would feel the same need to OOCly check in with a spouse I knew about, as I don't know that I've ever come across a partnered pair RL that I wasn't playing with both or they weren't both very open about the fact they were cool with things or I didn't know them RL or from other games.

The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable in regards to RL marriage and MUSHers is when someone badmouths their partner to me inappropriately. Especially if it's clear they're trying to connect with me OOCly using that. It squicks me when people do that with their online play partners, too, though.

[Warma Sheen]

@mietze It seems like what you're talking about is when you are RPing with someone else who has a partner. I'm referring more to myself having a partner and RPing relationship and sex with someone other than my partner.

But you do bring up a good point and I would definitely worry about OOC drama with the other person's RL partner, both if things went wrong or if things are going well, especially if they are on staff. I don't know about your relationship and I don't know what kind of jealously levels you guys have going on. I'm not trying to have someone freak out on me cause of it. I'm seen it happen before. I've heard of it happening more. No thanks.