Fate Development Thread

[Kairos]

One of the things I understand from the forum is that there are people for whom FATE is not really their jam for a variety of (perfectly good) reasons. To those people… sorry, this probably won’t be very interesting for you.

For the rest who might be curious in the ramblings of a guy on the internet taking advantage of the new spot to talk about games and making them, welcome. This is the the place to talk about FATE, using it and hacking it, something I have a small amount of practice doing.

To start with I figured I would briefly discuss what I think FATE is good for and what it’s not good for. This is just all, of course, in my opinion. Take that for whatever it’s worth.

So what is FATE not good at? What are the downsides? Well, for starters it’s not very good at detail and in a related way it’s not very good out of the box at putting hard numbers to what stats it does dole out. How strong IS a character with Physique +4. How fast, or slow, is a character with Athletics +2. The adjectives applied to the numbers only help a little bit. Knowing that a +1 skill is ‘average’ is great, but ‘average’ is going to mean different things to different people. That’s not an issue in a tabletop game with a single DM to adjudicate things, but in a MUSH it can cause some consternation.

FATE also requires a shift in thinking about RP. Because it’s mechanics are a bit more collaborative in nature, it requires its players to think a bit more about their RP in terms of story than in terms of a game in order to get the most out of them. Some will pick it up faster than others as with anything but unless the players in question already know FATE you can be pretty well assured they haven’t encountered anything they can compare it to and that can make picking it up in a MUSH context either daunting or annoying or both.

What is FATE good for, then? As a tool for collaborative storytelling I’m hard pressed to think of one I like more. When used as written - or even mostly as written - it gives players a high degree of agency in situations where other games either rely entirely on the DM or have them at the mercy of the dice. It’s lightwight and if folks want something that’ll be there when they want it and stay out of the way otherwise, there are worse systems to use to be sure.

FATE is also very, very hackable. While it only has a few tools in its box in terms of mechanics, it takes quite well to modification and while it’ll never be a crunchy or simulationist game compared to others, it can stand the addition of a fair amount of detail. It’s also very easy to adapt to different settings out of the box.

Finally it’s easy to get and there’s a lot of resources for it. The base book and a good number of the supplements are available for free and Evil Hat has gone so far as to license a number of its Fate works in such a way that it’s legal to copy, hack and post them on the internet. While that’s not something most MUers or MU devs will worry about it’s certainly something that’s a point in its favor in my mind. And if you’re willing to spend money, well, I’ve seen games that run the gamut from Bronze age fantasy RP to conversions of Eclipse Phase, so odds are good that if you don’t feel like hacking it, someone has already written something in the genre you’re looking for.

Anyway, those are my general ramblings on that system. If people have other ideas, questions, thoughts, experiences or what have you on using FATE, modifying it or just playing with it in a MUSH context I’d love to hear them.

[fatefan]

I imagine it would help a lot to have a bunch of in-game/on-hand resources (stunt examples, character templates a la Atomic Robo modes, etc.) to offer something resembling concrete boundaries. I don't mean 'productive constraint' necessarily but something more akin to comparable measures that can be usefully mad-libbed to what a player's going for.

I still want to run the sci-fi sandbox that I tried out last year, even though it was effectively a failure. I still want to run a BPRD game using the ARRPG rules (swapping Science for Occult and otherwise charging forward).

How much OOC conversation tends to go on in scenes with conflict so as to help shape poses? One thing Fate basically demands is OOC chatter about how a given aspect is being invoked/compelled, so for types who may want relatively minimal OOC "infiltration" of a scene, Fate may not necessarily be the answer...

[Kairos]

@fatefan Funny you should mention stunt mad-libs. I was just picking over some of my FATE library for ideas when I ran across that very thing in a game called Crestfallen. Stuff very much along the lines of 'Gain +2 to (action) when using (skill) whenever (circumstance).' It wouldn't be too hard to whip up a short list of templates like that and yeah I think it would be really helpful.

Also, regarding your space sandbox, I am of the personal opinion that no game is a failure if the people involved are having fun. (And, you know, aren't hurting other people doing so, etc etc) and I would still personally encourage you to make whatever it is you want to see out there if you have it in you to go through that process whether it's driven by FATE or not. Just my two cents of encouragement.

Conflict scenes tend to be pretty OOC intensive in general has been my observation, unless the people involved are fairly comfortable with both the setting and one another. Aspect invokes and compels do at to that, but I haven't personally noticed it making combat much slower than it already tends to be - and combat in my experience is one of the slowest RP activities in general whether in tabletop or MU. FATE is more likely than not to involve people who haven't used it extensively so you're right in that it sometimes isn't the tool you want when you're trying to keep OOC chatter to a minimum but by the same token I could much the same of any scene I've been in with at least one party member who hasn't used whatever we're using.

Ironically the best answer I've found to that one is to have a DM who knows when to not use the system.

[serenity]

@fatefan In my experience, the amount of OOC discussion varies. People newer to FATE often need more guidance than those who are familiar with it. In the cases where someone needs coaching, I tend to take it to pages - so as not to add to the OOC noise and to keep it focussed for the player.

When someone is familiar with their Aspects, I find they're very comfortable with making the declaration - I want to invoke / compel Aspect XYZ because of ABC - and for me to say, yep - go ahead. The discussion is fairly minimal.

Or, when the players are familiar with me as the GM, they know how to pose their questions / declarations, to keep things moving. That's the other side to that coin.

The other thing I've taken to doing is running dedicated tutorial sessions on one of our games. Taking a specific thing and going through it. That's helped a lot in player comprehension.

The final thing that I've noticed is that it doesn't slow our 'combat' scenes down noticeably. I've run combat on traits based games and FATE and both ways take about the same amount of time.

[BobGoblin]

I believe the people who run Inheritance Gambit have done an amazing job with FATE.

[Lithium]

FATE is easier in a MU format when you reduce the impact of FATE Points themselves. They become less an issue and less a resource management tool, which is /important/ because with a 24/7 online game the time format is a TON different than a weekly gaming session or whatnot, where FATE points become much more manageable.

Once you hack that away, you can then provide other bonuses for accepting compels, or for triggering them.

It is not a hard system to adjust for MU just nobody has really /tried/ there's a lot of systems that don't do well in MU* format but people seem pretty afraid to even try and change them from the get go so you get hacked in house rules that just confuse everyone worse.

[Kairos]

@lithium said in Fate Development Thread:

FATE is easier in a MU format when you reduce the impact of FATE Points themselves. They become less an issue and less a resource management tool, which is /important/ because with a 24/7 online game the time format is a TON different than a weekly gaming session or whatnot, where FATE points become much more manageable.

Once you hack that away, you can then provide other bonuses for accepting compels, or for triggering them.

And generally fate is pretty forgiving of such hacks, and I can TOTALLY see doing so. In my personal experience, people spend so much of their refresh at C-Gen that the general impact of fate points becomes less of a factor, but some of that is down, I think, to personal tolerance. The key thing for me, I think, is that you CAN hack fate to later the rewards for taking compels without worrying too much about breaking things.

It is not a hard system to adjust for MU just nobody has really /tried/ there's a lot of systems that don't do well in MU* format but people seem pretty afraid to even try and change them from the get go so you get hacked in house rules that just confuse everyone worse.

All of this, yeah. And your previous comment about an online game being different from a weekly game session. There's a lot of design assumptions that go into most tabletop game systems that need to be adjusted for MU's. The thing I like about FATE is that for the things I want it on the MU for (optional conflict resolution, c-gen framework, upgrade framework), those assumptions don't get in the way too much.

[Kumakun]

It's ALIVE!

Hi guys, I thought I'd bring this thread back because it seems to be the most appropriate place for my questions/thoughts/meanderings on executing fate in a persistent world setting such as a MU. I'm currently working through what it would take for a fate system to be as awesome online as it is tabletop.

I like some of the things I've seen so far:

I definitely agree with the fate points thing. They're such a huge part of the game system, but a bit hard to manage in a 24/7 environment. While I think they should keep their impact, I believe there should be more opportunity through a system where either one player 'GMs' and hands out compel bribes from a 'scene' pool - or having a system in place where any player can attempt to compel another might be an interesting way to keep scenes moving, and fate points flowing while you're waiting for your global refresh to happen. I guess it depends on how 'over the top' competent you want your players to be.

I also think that Atomic Robo's skill modes are great for quick character generation so that people can get right in there and start building stories without having to invest too much time in the little bit of numbers math there is.

Because I also like playing 'monster' games, I like Dresden Accelerated's Scale system, whereas some things that go bump in the night are just plain better than you - so figure out creative ways around that obstacle.

With things like skill modes, I could see chargen being more like a guided story building experience itself - much like the world-building exercises with more of an emphasis on your personal story up to this point, and maybe some internal decision making based on some 'personality' questions, who knows! Fate's flexible that way.

What else would you do to fate to make it more MU* friendly? How do we make it so new players aren't stuck in hours of OOC land trying to figure out the basics?

[fatefan]

@kumakun said in Fate Development Thread:

What else would you do to fate to make it more MU* friendly? How do we make it so new players aren't stuck in hours of OOC land trying to figure out the basics?

One thing you may want to consider (and that I played around with when I was developing a Fate game) is providing some semi-permanent/sticky location aspects for IC rooms, as part of the desc, in addition to whatever scene-specific/situational aspects there are--more as an available resource for players to easily lean on, invoke, etc.

[Kumakun]

@fatefan said in Fate Development Thread:

One thing you may want to consider (and that I played around with when I was developing a Fate game) is providing some semi-permanent/sticky location aspects for IC rooms, as part of the desc, in addition to whatever scene-specific/situational aspects there are--more as an available resource for players to easily lean on, invoke, etc.

That's a great idea! That would give them something easy to play off of and use as a resource, and perhaps some inspiration.

How would you guys handle milestones and character development in a persistent setting? Time-based milestones? A 'vote' system that adds up points towards a milestone?

[Thenomain]

@kumakun said in Fate Development Thread:

How would you guys handle milestones and character development in a persistent setting?

I would ask a similar question: "How would you define a session, or story arc?"

Minor Milestones:
I think at the end of any run scene, if someone can explain how the scene applies to the Minor Achievement then they should get it. (Maybe max once per week per one of the four Minor Achievements.)

Significant Milestones:
Whomever is running the scene probably knows beforehand if the scene itself is significant, though surprises will be had. If a private scene reveals a major character shift, then the dreaded "log review" would probably happen. These things are supposed to be personal.

Maybe limit people to one Significant Milestone per week or two weeks, or let them bank one. Sometimes you learn a crapton about yourself in a hurry, but the effect could be offset.

Major Milestones:
This is Fate's big level-up. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything less than an application and obvious situation. This is probably going to depend hugely on the themes of your game. I think that "Avengers: Civil War" held more than one Major Milestone for both Cap and Tony Stark.

The Key for any of these is that they make sense. Thank goodness that there's little in Fate's advancement system where you can't point and go, "There's the thing that I did/happened to me."

Adding and activating Aspects may be really personal, but I think you could make Advancement pretty clear and straight-forward.

[Kumakun]

@thenomain said in Fate Development Thread:

Minor Milestones:
I think at the end of any run scene if someone can explain how the scene applies to the Minor Achievement then they should get it. (Maybe max once per week per one of the four Minor Achievements.)

Significant Milestones:
Whomever is running the scene probably knows beforehand if the scene itself is significant, though surprises will be had. If a private scene reveals a major character shift, then the dreaded "log review" would probably happen. These things are supposed to be personal.

Maybe limit people to one Significant Milestone per week or two weeks, or let them bank one. Sometimes you learn a crapton about yourself in a hurry, but the effect could be offset.

Major Milestones:
This is Fate's big level-up. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything less than an application and obvious situation. This is probably going to depend hugely on the themes of your game. I think that "Avengers: Civil War" held more than one Major Milestone for both Cap and Tony Stark.

The Key for any of these is that they make sense. Thank goodness that there's little in Fate's advancement system where you can't point and go, "There's the thing that I did/happened to me."

Adding and activating Aspects may be really personal, but I think you could make Advancement pretty clear and straight-forward.

I like this. I want to emphasize the game as a story building platform, bringing emphasis to the importance of scenes as chapters or short stories in the running fiction of the game. There's going to be a whole system around it. I'll save that for another thread! I think that's a great rhythm for advancement, submitted scenes - plus it means regular additions to your game's collection, and maybe having extra perks or some sort for community voting or some such.

[JinShei]

We used time and votes for the milestones. It did become a problem as the dinosaurs grew, and I think it would be essential to do it differently next time.

[Thenomain]

@jinshei

How would you do it differently?

[JinShei]

In all honestly, I'm not sure. We played it much as you set it out plus the need for votes to get you there.

I suspect I'd make the development more about the aspects, reducing reliance on the numbers. We both know I'm more story than numbers, as a player and a staffer. I think you will get the dinos in any game where you run for more than a few years, in any system.

I do like the idea of putting it more on the scenes and removing the votes - the only issue is that you have players who can't regularly make those scenes, and we had that mix on DS.

[WildBaboons]

I was one of those DS players that rarely made GMed scenes or got much in the way of votes so I loved that I could still advance with time as my characters story progressed. I think a limit on max points would have work to stop some of the dinosaur affect and maybe just everything else has to go to Fate points. I dunno.

[JinShei]

@wildbaboons oh hai. Who were you?

[JinShei]

To put it into context, I played a character from the time DS opened until six months before it closed. She could literally force most opposing npcs to sit down and be quiet with her skill level. I retired her because she made other characters pointless in even our biggest plots and I never wanted to be That Staffer. So the system is story heavy, but even when the player is focused on the story alone, the way we had it set up with ticking over and votes, that turned them into a dino.

I don't have solutions but I think we would have had to change our way of doing stuff.... I do miss it though )

[Kumakun]

@jinshei I was hoping you'd join in!! I was actually getting ready to ping you about your experience with DS and running Fate long term, then turn you here.

I think @Thenomain's thoughts might help slow down the major progression some, buying more time before the older more active characters rise to the top, but ultimately they're naturally going to no matter the system so long as it has numbers or any kind of progression really.

I guess the question is how to make the casual player feel like they're progressing smoothly and not being left /too/ far behind, or is that naturally going to happen after a couple of years?

[JinShei]

I agree, his ideas have a distinct merit (As they often do). I think there is an inevitability to the dino problem because active people progress. Maybe the milestones come slower as people move up? Removing votes helps but replace with praise that gains nothing except warm fuzzy feels.