New Project?
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@tempest said in New Project?:
@ThatOneDude , you listed about 50 books, 90% of which are NOT OUT, DARK ERAS, REPRINTS, or specifically DEMON.
I'm confused on the reprints portion of this. I added the /not out/ sections to show there is a TON of content still in the pipeline. Not to mention how much is already in the core-books. I don't have the will to argue over stupid shit on the internet anymore. The line /no content/ vs /content I don't like/ made me >.<. But that's on me.
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make a wod game set in Kupreanof, Alaska
it's got, like, 25 people
also refuse to ever address how a ton of vampires and whatever live there
y/w
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@prototart said in New Project?:
make a wod game set in Kupreanof, Alaska
it's got, like, 25 people
also refuse to ever address how a ton of vampires and whatever live there
y/w
I'd play it.
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I voted not to bother.
But.
I will, of course, help as I have before. And if you make the project 2E only, and don't wedge in a bunch of 1E material, I'll help a lot.
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I have .5 - 5% interest in things like demons and mummies and mages, and 0% interest in vampires, werewolves, and changelings. I don't follow these gamelines, I don't know anything about ooc power comparisons or options, but just speaking from a "what is a cool setting" standpoint...I'm over even hearing vamps and werewolves and changelings discussed. Do something new and different, if you are going to do anything.
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@sunnyj said in New Project?:
Werewolf, on the other hand, I feel lost all of its charm, and it hadn't much to begin with. It got TOO streamlined and 'neat'.
I don't follow Werewolf, I have PTSD from Anytown MUSH over werewolves, so.
That said.
EVERYONE I know or have heard from hates werewolf 1e. You're the first person in a long time I've heard like, oh, 2e? Blah, I miss 1e.
So I don't know, there's something about you here I'm not getting.
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@ixokai said in New Project?:
EVERYONE I know or have heard from hates werewolf 1e. You're the first person in a long time I've heard like, oh, 2e? Blah, I miss 1e.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm not a fan of either werewolf so both are bleh, but this is the first time I've heard of someone preferring 1E and I am mildly curious to the reasons.
it's almost like people are different and form their own opinions on things instead of following the masses.
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@ixokai @WildBaboons I will try to explain myself, but I am going to preface this by saying that 1e isn't perfect by any means!
My main gripe with 2e comes from everything being too "neat", which was OPP's intention and I think it was a fucking horrible decision to do. Everything has a very narrow purpose, a shape you can only fit into one thing. The game doesn't let you figure things out by yourself. I will give examples:
Each form has a strict purpose, and I do not know why they did that shit. Instead of letting players figure out their own playstyles the book states that the Dalu is for 'clearing the room' and figuring out where the prey is, the Urshul is for rounding it up, and the Gauru is to finish it off. So they buff the Gauru out its mind, and the result is that in a 2e everyone who is not a Gauru is missing out. On 1e, you could figure things out by yourself. Do you think you have the right combination of Gifts and Fighting Styles to go Dalu? Are you one of those people who likes to shotfun their way through WoD? Or do you prefer the more reliable Urshul instead of the Gauru? Do you have Gifts that tinker with the Gauru and make it a more interesting gamble? All of that is gone on 2e. You start the fight in Gauru or Urhan, and then fight in Gauru. The book tells you that is how things happen, and the mechanics enforce that. I dislike it immensely. It homogenizes the gameplay AND makes characters samey in a scene.
Gifts in 2e not only are too powerful, but they also further shove you into roles in uninteresting ways. Now, I am not saying the Rahu shouldn't have an advantage in combat, but I am saying that they shouldn't be gods at it by sheer virtue of having picked an auspice at CG. On 1e you had plenty of options that could make the Ithaeur and Cahalith, if not competitive, fun to RP in combat. On 2e you might as well excuse yourself from the table while the Irraka and Rahu throw dice at the STs face (not a fan of powers that are basically +dice + successes + rote, etc. WoD doesn't need MORE dice). You could make an Ithaeur based around fighting with Crashing the Weave, Two-World Eyes and Wisdom of Patience + Fetishes, or a Cahalith based around frenzying and resistance in combat, a Ithaeur that debuffed people, etc. On 2e if you are not a Rahu/Irraka with Hit and Run you are basically out of combat.
Still on gifts, they are so unimaginative and lame, but SO powerful, they also make the Pure, the best antagonist of werewolf imo, complete chumps in a fight. Before a Rahu with Full Moon Gifts 5 wasn't guaranteed to win against a better trained, more aggressive Predator King ith more attributes and skills and spirit buddies. Now? Yeah. Forget it. Especially in a MU environment where people are guaranteed to have at least one Renown at 5.
So to sum up, gifts are less varied, less interesting and disgustingly powerful, because dice > flavor, I guess. One I have a special gripe with is the FIRST Ithaeur gift, which insta-exposes a spirit's ban. That used to be the source of Ithaeur scenes and quests. Now you just roll dice and that is supposed to make you feel useful? But it just ruins the whole fun of hunting a powerful spirit, imo.
Totems now can only offer extra dice, which is shit. WoD breaks with too many dice, stop giving me dice. Before you could at least buy Gifts, which was pretty cool, so a pack serving the Thunderbird could have Weather 5 Call Lightining and summon lightning from the sky. Now they get +1 Strength or whatever the fuck. Not a fan.
I could go on, but I flat out don't like how they tried to make everything fit into place and thus removed all the chaos and exploration from Werewolf. I know a LOT of people gripe on the unihar and werewolf sex, or how costly and useless Renown is, or how bad Primal Urge was, but despite its many flaws, I think Forsaken 1e tried for more, and ended up achieving more as a result. It didn't have this vibe of OPP trying to be the 'Apple of RPGs' and turning all their gamelines in 'beautiful, sleek designs'. They feel so pretentious.
Pictured: Me crying over Werewolf 2e. -
There are so many easy fixes to address your issues, but, for me, the fact that the Elodoth are generally useless makes me toss my hands up.
Werewolf 1E was terrible, but it was better. I'll give you that.
That said, I am a fan of RDC's work and temperament as a game-runner. I really liked Fallen World, and I think I'd like a game with Demon as its sole focus. So, I'd recommend picking one of the two lines, maybe pulling them both together, and seeing what shakes out.
But a lot of pre-game work needs to be done to mesh the lines.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede Jesus Christ, the Elodoth. They really didn't know what they wanted with them, and they still don't. My heart goes out to anyone trying to play one. Also, Philodox all the way.
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@ixokai
I will admit to not giving WW2e more than a once over but I don't see a lot of difference between it and 1e except for the tribe changing to be what you hunt instead of grouped more on what you believe, which I greatly dislike since I have always loved the spirit aspect of WW but don't care for hte bone shadows.
The other two big changes I think are positive don't really effect the game for me and that is getting rid of the spirit baby stupidity and that anyone can join a pack. -
Werewolf also gives you DICE for things in unfun ways, in my experience. Like, it gives you dice just to be giving you dice, and it usually seems noticeable?
My vampire gets bonus dice to his brawl attacks because of vigor, which also makes him stronger passively and can, in and of itself, be a fun tool to RP. The immortal monster who looks like plain Jane, but can heave you through a wall, etc, etc. Sure, it's not like THE AMAZING FUN TRAIN, but it's still....something?
I'm not a werewolf expert, but in my experience most of the werewolf stuff is explicitly like "add X-renown to Brawl attacks" "add rote to sneak attacks" "add 8-again to weaponry attacks" because goddamn, you need to keep up with the other splats somehow.
Also, Renown is one of the worst mechanics across any of the splats. It makes sense story-wise, but in terms of the mechanics, it's one of the most obnoxious things in any of the games. Renown as a stat does almost NOTHING and yet costs on par with a power stat.
Which brings us to the actual power stat. Primal Urge is by far, the worst power stat across any of the game lines. It does almost nothing. None of the power rolls use it, because that's what renown is for.
Compare this to mage, where Arcana are both...side-power stats AND each dot gives you access to 10+ powers AND is used in countless rolls. Gnosis is the end all be all, used for any improvised spells, iirc? Or vampire where blood potency is amazingly potent (comparatively speaking) in terms of what benefits you get for every dot of it. Or Changeling where increased Wyrd is actually kind of fun, AND still pretty potent.
My impressions as somebody who plays these games, but has never cared enough to really become an expert on any of them.
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@sunnyj said in New Project?:
@ixokai @WildBaboons I will try to explain myself, but I am going to preface this by saying that 1e isn't perfect by any means!
My main gripe with 2e comes from everything being too "neat", which was OPP's intention and I think it was a fucking horrible decision to do. Everything has a very narrow purpose, a shape you can only fit into one thing. The game doesn't let you figure things out by yourself. I will give examples:
Each form has a strict purpose, and I do not know why they did that shit. Instead of letting players figure out their own playstyles the book states that the Dalu is for 'clearing the room' and figuring out where the prey is, the Urshul is for rounding it up, and the Gauru is to finish it off. So they buff the Gauru out its mind, and the result is that in a 2e everyone who is not a Gauru is missing out. On 1e, you could figure things out by yourself. Do you think you have the right combination of Gifts and Fighting Styles to go Dalu? Are you one of those people who likes to shotfun their way through WoD? Or do you prefer the more reliable Urshul instead of the Gauru? Do you have Gifts that tinker with the Gauru and make it a more interesting gamble? All of that is gone on 2e. You start the fight in Gauru or Urhan, and then fight in Gauru. The book tells you that is how things happen, and the mechanics enforce that. I dislike it immensely. It homogenizes the gameplay AND makes characters samey in a scene.
Gifts in 2e not only are too powerful, but they also further shove you into roles in uninteresting ways. Now, I am not saying the Rahu shouldn't have an advantage in combat, but I am saying that they shouldn't be gods at it by sheer virtue of having picked an auspice at CG. On 1e you had plenty of options that could make the Ithaeur and Cahalith, if not competitive, fun to RP in combat. On 2e you might as well excuse yourself from the table while the Irraka and Rahu throw dice at the STs face (not a fan of powers that are basically +dice + successes + rote, etc. WoD doesn't need MORE dice). You could make an Ithaeur based around fighting with Crashing the Weave, Two-World Eyes and Wisdom of Patience + Fetishes, or a Cahalith based around frenzying and resistance in combat, a Ithaeur that debuffed people, etc. On 2e if you are not a Rahu/Irraka with Hit and Run you are basically out of combat.
Still on gifts, they are so unimaginative and lame, but SO powerful, they also make the Pure, the best antagonist of werewolf imo, complete chumps in a fight. Before a Rahu with Full Moon Gifts 5 wasn't guaranteed to win against a better trained, more aggressive Predator King ith more attributes and skills and spirit buddies. Now? Yeah. Forget it. Especially in a MU environment where people are guaranteed to have at least one Renown at 5.
So to sum up, gifts are less varied, less interesting and disgustingly powerful, because dice > flavor, I guess. One I have a special gripe with is the FIRST Ithaeur gift, which insta-exposes a spirit's ban. That used to be the source of Ithaeur scenes and quests. Now you just roll dice and that is supposed to make you feel useful? But it just ruins the whole fun of hunting a powerful spirit, imo.
Totems now can only offer extra dice, which is shit. WoD breaks with too many dice, stop giving me dice. Before you could at least buy Gifts, which was pretty cool, so a pack serving the Thunderbird could have Weather 5 Call Lightining and summon lightning from the sky. Now they get +1 Strength or whatever the fuck. Not a fan.
I could go on, but I flat out don't like how they tried to make everything fit into place and thus removed all the chaos and exploration from Werewolf. I know a LOT of people gripe on the unihar and werewolf sex, or how costly and useless Renown is, or how bad Primal Urge was, but despite its many flaws, I think Forsaken 1e tried for more, and ended up achieving more as a result. It didn't have this vibe of OPP trying to be the 'Apple of RPGs' and turning all their gamelines in 'beautiful, sleek designs'. They feel so pretentious.
Pictured: Me crying over Werewolf 2e.I don't know where to start other than to say you are wrong on many levels much like what I've read from you on most of the posts in this thread.
Forms, you aren't locked into anything in terms of using them outside of their /strict purpose/. You can kill something in hishu or any other form. You can track and do anything you want in any form.
As for Gifts, surprise... anyone can buy any gift to include auspice/moon gifts. So you are a sneaky rahu using Full Moon and New Moon. As for being Over Powered I'd look at them vs 2e Disciplines and tell you again you are wrong.
Thank you for not taking it further.
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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@thatonedude said in New Project?:
Forms, you aren't locked into anything in terms of using them outside of their /strict purpose/. You can kill something in hishu or any other form. You can track and do anything you want in any form.
Yes, you can kill something in Hishu. I never said otherwise? That is not the point at all.
As for Gifts, surprise... anyone can buy any gift to include auspice/moon gifts. So you are a sneaky rahu using Full Moon and New Moon.
No, you can't buy Moon Gifts associated with ot her Auspices. From the book: "A new werewolf gains a single Moon Gift associated with her auspice." and then "You may discover other Moon Gifts that are associated with your auspice at a cost of 5 Experiences." Even if they could, that wouldn't have addressed the fact I find these gifts boring.
As for being Over Powered I'd look at them vs 2e Disciplines and tell you again you are wrong.
Did I ever say they are less or more powerful than vampires?
Thank you for not taking it further.
I don't know where to start other than to say you are wrong on many levels much like what I've read from you on most of the posts in this thread.To quote a genius lyricist, You better check yo self before you wreck yo self. Didn't you say you do not have the patience/time to argue in the internet?
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@sunnyj said in New Project?:
@thatonedude said in New Project?:
Forms, you aren't locked into anything in terms of using them outside of their /strict purpose/. You can kill something in hishu or any other form. You can track and do anything you want in any form.
Yes, you can kill something in Hishu. I never said otherwise? That is not the point at all.
As for Gifts, surprise... anyone can buy any gift to include auspice/moon gifts. So you are a sneaky rahu using Full Moon and New Moon.
No, you can't buy Moon Gifts associated with ot her Auspices. From the book: "A new werewolf gains a single Moon Gift associated with her auspice." and then "You may discover other Moon Gifts that are associated with your auspice at a cost of 5 Experiences." Even if they could, that wouldn't have addressed the fact I find these gifts boring.
As for being Over Powered I'd look at them vs 2e Disciplines and tell you again you are wrong.
Did I ever say they are less or more powerful than vampires?
Thank you for not taking it further.
I don't know where to start other than to say you are wrong on many levels much like what I've read from you on most of the posts in this thread.To quote a genius lyricist, You better check yo self before you wreck yo self. Didn't you say you do not have the patience/time to argue in the internet?
Wtf2e p85
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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Page 115.
MOON GIFTS CRESCENT MOON’S GIFT This Gift is only available to IthaeurThis is what she's talking about, the specific Auspice gifts.
While you're "technically" correct, there's space for both of you to be in the right when expectations are clarified.
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Another moon gift associated with your auspice.
As in, when they start releasing more gifts for each specific auspice, like they did in 1e.
Rahu can not learn Crescent Moon/New Moon/etc.
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Usually not a fan of Mage on a multisphere game, but Demon is fucking dope, and the games have some interesting thematic overlaps it might be interesting to zero in on. For that pairing I think Houston or DC would be a better fit, and Beast can go choke forever under all circumstances, but no game is perfect.
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@tempest said in New Project?:
Another moon gift associated with your auspice.
As in, when they start releasing more gifts for each specific auspice, like they did in 1e.
Rahu can not learn Crescent Moon/New Moon/etc.
This. To quote the book developer, @ThatOneDude ...
Acrozatarim
Acrozatarim
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 1711
#7
12-05-2015, 06:25 PM
Indeed, you absolutely cannot learn auspice gifts associated with another auspice, only your own. The intention is for there to be more than one gift associated with a given auspice at some point in the future. -
@rdc
My write-in vote: No Beast.
I gave up coding the Best system because it's one part incomplete and one part the powers depend entirely on what other supers are part of your group. I trust you can code or find someone to code this aspect, but I gave up on it pretty quickly.
I personally don't like the "powers come from other supers" aspect that just makes me think Kumbaya/Super-Friends. The game system also doesn't feel polished. Promethean and Mummy, tho staged as stand-alone games, feel like complete games. Beast felt like it was written without playtesting or focus.
Tho as @Ganymede says, you're good for game development, so you're on the short list of people who'd make Beast work. It'd be an interesting experiment.
