Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E)

Ominous

@admiral Isn't the whole central aspect of WoD to play an angsty <insert supernatural creature here>? Except Mage, as that's just Ars Magica set in the modern world.

Deleted

@ominous This isn't the Grunge era. We don't have to be angsty anymore. There's more colors than black and more emotions than 'My parents don't understand me.'

Thenomain

@admiral

Why can't we remove the stupid humanity bullshit and let people RP what they want to RP?

You can. It’s called Not Playing White Wolf’s Version of Vampire.

It’s an easy game. You might want to try it out.

ThatGuyThere

@shelbeast said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

@ominous said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

Couldn't it be interpretted that even getting one stain is so damning for a 9 Humanity Vampire that they don't get a chance to resist? Whereas the 3 Humanity vampire is obviously so inhumane that a few stains are all in a day's work. They don't even register, until they really go all out.

I fully believe that this is what it should mean. However, since you're rolling to succeed, and success means your character actually FEELS REMORSE,

One of the few times I ran a vampire campaign in table top one of the players was new to WoD and when it came to his first humanity roll he realized that a success would mean feeling remorse and he voluntarily failed because he didn't want his character to feel remorse over the action. It was a neat moment that did garner him a couple of extra xp.

Bobotron

Just as a clarification, Humanity isn't how 'good' you are. It's how much you cling to human existence in the face of the Beast. It's about remembering what it is to be a normal human, rather than letting the Beast chip away at what makes you, you, and let it take you over and make you a wight.

Humanity is rejiggered in this system as well. The system is built from 3 pieces:

Chronicle Tenets, which are 'humanity rules' that are game-wide that apply to everyone.
Convictions, up to 3 tenets you personally keep (such as 'I will only kill in self-defense' or 'My family must not know' and such)
Touchstones, humans who embody that Conviction for you and allow you to mitigate Stains on your soul, which is how you lose Humanity. It is trivial to alter Touchstones to be places or things, and the talk about the Sabbat book talked about things, and even your Pack Priest being your Touchstone, but nothing is set in stone there.

If you violate a Chronicle Tenet, you get Stains. If you violate a Chronicle Tenet in defense of/accordance with the Conviction, your Stains are reduced by 1, to 0. And as you lose Humanity you don't gain Derangements or go crazy; you become more monster than man, incurring penalties dealing with Humans and lose the ability to use Blush of Life, among some other penalties.

SunnyJ

@admiral said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

Why can't we remove the stupid humanity bullshit and let people RP what they want to RP? My vampire can be a good person or a monster but I shouldn't be railroaded towards certain moralities.

And I say this as someone who doesn't play total murderous monsters. I haven't since I was a teenage edgelord. They're bogging a game about -being a fucking undead monster with super powers- down into something tedious.

The idea in Masquerade is that without strict ethos the Beast always prevails, and unlife is shock full of philosophical deathtraps, enough that vampires opt to travel time tested roads instead of venturing into the woods of whateverIwantness.

Arkandel

@sunnyj said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

The idea in Masquerade is that without strict ethos the Beast always prevails, and unlife is shock full of philosophical deathtraps, enough that vampires opt to travel time tested roads instead of venturing into the woods of whateverIwantness.

In my head canon it's pretty simple - being a Vampire is about the long game. Everything is measures on a different time scale since you stick around for so long; even if there's one chance in a thousand you'd yield to temptation, well, you're going to be around for centuries, and be exposed to thousands of different scenarios. You need to have something to hold onto else your moral downfall is inevitable (and, in fact, it's inevitable either way).

In the long term you'll always do something horrible.

Thenomain

Okay, reading the PDF. Not going to do an overview on it (unless people really want), but some things stand out.

The font they are using, Bookmania Light, is too thin. To see this for yourself compare the text on most pages vs. the black-backed text where they shift to Bookmania Regular.
This book is absolutely gorgeous. We kind of knew that going in, but it really is a work of art. My complaint of font choice above is for legibility; for appropriateness in layout it's very good.
Kudos—many, many kudos—for attention to detail and giving credit to the photographers and models. And using a Betty White style person for an alternative Ventrue. I laughed.
While I liked the intro letter, it was a bit kitchy. I don't think it had much of a choice in order to be a giant exposition dump. It's followed by a collage of theme setting 'documents' which I glazed over because it's kind of random, and by "kind of" I mean "bring your ADHD meds".
(Addendum to the previous two bullet-points: Note that the letter and other dossier items take place on two halves of the same desk throughout the chapter. Like I said, amazing attention to detail.)
The Malkavian section starts with a discussion between Jeanette and Therese. (SQUEE!) I don't think that discussion would ever happen as Therese would never stand being called Malkavian, but it was a cool touch nonetheless.

Okay okay okay, I'm done, fine.

The book is a book. It's even an RPG. And if I don't see a giant neon sign above the bit or bits that Neil Gaiman wrote I'm going to be disappointed.

Bobotron

@thenomain

The Neil Gaiman thing is because they reused some of his stuff from a Vampire tarot, I think?

Thenomain

@bobotron said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

@thenomain

The Neil Gaiman thing is because they reused some of his stuff from a Vampire tarot, I think?

Looks like you're right.

To quote from RPGNet:

I found the text by looking through my copy of 'The Art of vampire the Masquerade' and comparing it with my copy of V5.
.
The text in question is an excerpt of 2-3 paragraphs taken from the multi-page Tarot text collage at the beginning of the art book. It briefly describes a conversation between human and a vampire, talking about similarities and differences between their states of being.
.
The Gaiman vignette ends when the vampire admits she feels sad for her loss of human capacities.
.
In the V5 version another two sentences are added. One in which she haughtily denies that vampires can cry and the next one in which the human's internal monologue confirms that he can clearly tell that she is lying.

edit: from earlier in that thread:

According to the Twitter exchange with Gaiman, it appears that they’ve used a piece of Gaiman’s work that was printed in an Art of Vampire book in ‘99, but changed the ending.
.
Interestingly, it appears that the first Gaiman knew of it was when someone brought it to his attention on Twitter. I have no idea what the original agreement was, but according to Gaiman’s site he holds the copyright and it has been published in one of his own collections of stories.

Neh. <-- disappointed, as promised

tragedyjones

@sunnyj said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

@thenomain I don't agree with your take on the sex stuff, Theno. Vampire Requiem is almost entirely about sex and power trips, and they didn't go 'Yeah, fucking!' on the Requiem book that I know of. Why? Maybe because they realize that it is a fruitless pursuit and that people will absolutely fuck in Gauru if they want to, cuz kinks.

@Bobotron Also, imo, Coteries need to end. Bad for MUs.

The 2nd non-fiction sentence in Requiem 2nd Edition is "Vampire is about sex and murder, about power and wild defiance."

It is very much up front about it now. Kindred are sexy movie Vampires. Strix are creepy folklore vampires.

Thenomain

Follow up: This is classic Vampire.

It is designed to be depressing and rough, and the Hunger dice are mean little bastards, but this is classic Vampire, or at least classic Vampire if written by seasoned professionals for a modern era. It certainly feels more like the very first Vampire more than any book that came after.

I don’t like what they did with Jeanette and Therese, but I still like the nod to them, acknowledging Troika as good creators.

ShelBeast

@thenomain Yeah. I've been saying to everyone that I talk to about this that... if you were into the Underworld vibe of Revised, this isn't really the game for you. This is a game for those people who were into VtM 1st edition, and early in the lifespan of 2nd Edition. It's a game that tries to focus more on the personal horror of the slide into inhumanity and the struggles of trying to live a life when you've become a monster. It's about the dissolution of personal relationships, the intrigues of being low man on the totem pole, pushed and pulled by people who are far more inhuman than you, and how far you're willing to compromise of yourself to find a balance between power and humanity.

Lithium

@thenomain What did they do to Jeanette and Therese?

Thenomain

@shelbeast

I noticed how they slowed down the XP bloat, too.

We are back to the “XP times new level” system which I’ll be honest I didn’t mind.

Now you get one XP per session, plus maybe one more.

Disciplines are 10 XP times new level.

Paying attention, Mushes?

Also important to note that the Attributes are nWoD attributes. Appearance is gone, Presence is in. Best thing they could’ve used from the nWoD stuff. (Willpower is calculated nWoD manner too. Really some good system decisions here.)

Wait, I promised I’d not be doing an overview.

I know I’m gushing a bit, tho I can’t quite describe why. I’ve never wanted to play Vampire online, and rarely tabletop. Maybe it’s watching authors I like doing something well.

Thenomain

@lithium said in Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition (VtM 5E):

@thenomain What did they do to Jeanette and Therese?

You know that big surprise reveal about them in Bloodlines?

They just straight up tell you.

Also they are now running different clubs in different parts of LA which...is something that I kind of think is interesting. They are used as an example of gaining...not Status, but something like it, with particular groups. One level is “Jeanette’s Favorite” which made me giggle because I’m not sure being Jeanette’s favorite would be a good thing.

Bobotron

@thenomain
Nitpick. NOt Presence. Composure.

Strength, Dex, Stam
Charisma, Manip, Composure
Int, Wits, Resolve

The Loresheets are one of my favorite parts. Though I don't forsee them being usable on a MU* without staff making tons and tons of custom ones, as they're meant to be a 'unique thing' to a PC, to a point, and a PC can only take dots from one Loreseet.

ShelBeast

@bobotron Overall, there is a LOT of system stuff that cannot be really feasibly done on a MU*. Even the feeding mechanics would essentially need to be ST run scenes, thanks to Resonance and Dyscrasia. Loresheets are another example. It would take a lot of work to really make this game MU* compatible, and I'm not certain how well it would wind up in the translation.

Bobotron

@shelbeast

Yeah. It's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to adapt this to a MU* without pulling out some of the more interesting mechanics or tearing staff's heads open with staff oversight needed.

That said, I'm super looking forward ot actually running it; we are doing our Session Zero on Tuesday for my 4 man TT game of it.

Thenomain

@bobotron

Composure, thank you. Again doing technical typing from my iPad without reference material. Still, Appearance is gone, tho there is a merit (a la nWoD, tho nWoD’s Striking Appearance I think is more flexible),

Considering how happy people here are to write Bloodlines, I don’t think coming up with Loresheets would be hard if they are tweaked to be available for groups, more like Status. I would love to see players writing their own, tho I would have the same creativity block that I do for all writing things I do.

I’m sure something can be done for a more Mush oriented system. The Coterie setup itself looks like it would be the hardest sell for online play.