Wheel of Time
-
@Bad-at-Lurking said in Wheel of Time:
Guys have so many options for being 'special' in the Wheel of Time that not being able to make a Channeler character isn't a hardship at all. Everything from Gleeman to Illuminator to Dreamer to Wolfbrother to Warder or Thieftaker, nobles, scholars, rogues and such.
And just like Star Wars not being able to play a channeler (or Force user) might be a sensible thing to do but it's not exactly the most exciting design choice.
-
@Packrat I agree that channelers should be rare and terrifying in RP, but once you've met a dozen and knocked boots with two... they're just not as scary. And because PCs are PCs, the terrifying thing just never happens anyhow. Which means that unless Staff leans hard into the idea that channelers are terrifying and NPCs fear and hate them, it won't be so, so they will get all the benefits of being beatsticks and none of the downsides of being terrifying social pariahs.
-
@Seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time:
@Packrat I agree that channelers should be rare and terrifying in RP, but once you've met a dozen and knocked boots with two... they're just not as scary. And because PCs are PCs, the terrifying thing just never happens anyhow. Which means that unless Staff leans hard into the idea that channelers are terrifying and NPCs fear and hate them, it won't be so, so they will get all the benefits of being beatsticks and none of the downsides of being terrifying social pariahs.
Yeah, it's like meeting with the Joker every day in a comic book game. Sure, you as a player want your PC to feel unsettled (and/or scared shitless) but how long can you do that for if Mr. J is on the grid every day, hanging out all the time, etc?
My - probably unpopular - opinion: Keep Aes Sedai playable by all, make male channelers playable only by application (i.e. allowing them only for select trusted folks and carefully curating their numbers), but permit them to be around.
Channelers are too cool and too big a part of the WoT sage to not be present, no matter the setting's era, and it's not worth sacrificing for balance. Balance should not be a major consideration for a Wheel of Time game unless it skews the demographics (i.e. if you start seeing more and false Dragons than you do Whitecloaks or there are more Aes Sedai playing the Great Game than Lords and Ladies).
-
Rare and terrifying really depends on the setting you choose. Tar Valon based female channelers will be common place. In the Borderlands they may be rare but will be well respected instead of scary. Cairhein and Andor similar, though maybe not with the same reverence. Amador and Tear... less receptive.
Personally, unless the game is in the time of the books or beyond I wouldn't allow male channelers at all as a playable concept and save them for NPC Plot purposes.
-
@Arkandel said in Wheel of Time:
My - probably unpopular - opinion: Keep Aes Sedai playable by all, make male channelers playable only by application (i.e. allowing them only for select trusted folks and carefully curating their numbers), but permit them to be around.
Not completely unpopular? I would play this game.
In the books, we know there are male channelers other than just the false dragons and Rand. Having them hanging around Tar Valon would be putting them in pretty serious peril, but if there were proper world-tweaks, it could be do-able.
Having two playable areas the way Cuendillar did would work for that. Tar Valon and Cairhien or Caemlyn. Just allow that either Traveling isn't so fucking hard, or the Ways are still passable between those two cities, and voila: you don't isolate characters from each other, and you still have a place where Channeling is commonplace and one where it's OMG BURN THE WITCH.
-
@Arkandel said in Wheel of Time:
My - probably unpopular - opinion: Keep Aes Sedai playable by all, make male channelers playable only by application (i.e. allowing them only for select trusted folks and carefully curating their numbers), but permit them to be around.
My view is the exact opposite: Let anyone who wants to play a channeler, play a channeler. I've never been a fan of hiding the special character options behind restrictions. Inevitably they get hoarded. You'll end up with conflict, bitterness and the appearance (and quite often in actuality as well) of favoritism, all over who gets to be the super special. Beyond that, there's never any guarantee that even great players will portray great (or responsible) characters every time. Certainly being buddy with staff never is.
On the other hand, again, the only-female channelers is one of the things that would set Wheel of Time apart from most other games. You'll be cutting off one of the flavor points that really makes its power dynamics unique. It'll feel like a missed opportunity to me.
I do probably also have an unpopular opinion, though, in that I think channelers aughta be fairly OP. Go against one without a plan and numbers and you probably aught to lose badly. On the upside, Aes Sedai can't actually use the one power to hurt you anyway, so there's that! Unless you allow Black Ajah, but I'd probably restrict that to NPCs only.
-
@lordbelh said in Wheel of Time:
I do probably also have an unpopular opinion, though, in that I think channelers aughta be fairly OP. Go against one without a plan and numbers and you probably aught to lose badly. On the upside, Aes Sedai can't actually use the one power to hurt you anyway, so there's that! Unless you allow Black Ajah, but I'd probably restrict that to NPCs only.
I don't think there's a way to avoid the imbalance since, well, that's just how the books are written. On a fundamental level there's hard to say a guy with a sharp stick is more 'powerful' than a guy/gal who can blow shit up with their minds, or a doctor type with some bandages and a scalpel is as good as someone who can bring you back to health from massive amounts of trauma within seconds.
Another consideration is to keep the need for (and protect the niche of) non-channelers. One way is to enforce specialization systemically since after all an Aes Sedai who has spent her life learning how to channel shouldn't also be an expert with weapons, thus giving her a tangible reason to have a bodyguard type around. Or someone's effectiveness in the Great Game could be penalized for known channelers since they are mistrusted, to avoid making them successful politicians on top of everything else.
That kind of thing. Not so much about balance per se but preservation of functions for other types.
@krmbm said in Wheel of Time:
Having two playable areas the way Cuendillar did would work for that. Tar Valon and Cairhien or Caemlyn. Just allow that either Traveling isn't so fucking hard, or the Ways are still passable between those two cities, and voila: you don't isolate characters from each other, and you still have a place where Channeling is commonplace and one where it's OMG BURN THE WITCH.
In my opinion this is the most dangerous design choice for a WoT game. The more geographically spread out it is the harder it would be to ensure RP happens without liberal handwaving or constant Gateways commuting people around like a fantasy airline, yet once you narrow it down to one area then that becomes the focal point of... well, everything for the entire game. Whoever controls it has a major advantage, anything that happens elsewhere feels by necessity less important, and action at a part of the world far away for the sake of RP is tricky.
In the books it wasn't a huge deal since everyone and their dog was a super channeler who could open Gateways at will. How a MU* chooses to address geography will determine a lot, IMHO.
-
@Arkandel said in Wheel of Time:
In my opinion this is the most dangerous design choice for a WoT game. The more geographically spread out it is the harder it would be to ensure RP happens without liberal handwaving or constant Gateways commuting people around like a fantasy airline, yet once you narrow it down to one area then that becomes the focal point of... well, everything for the entire game.
Yeah, that's why my whole comment is predicated on the idea that you have to allow for fast-travel. Having two areas is super! Having two areas that you can't easily move between is the opposite of super.
In the books it wasn't a huge deal since everyone and their dog was a super channeler who could open Gateways at will. How a MU* chooses to address geography will determine a lot, IMHO.
Agreed. I would hand-wave the difficulties of travel to allow for two flavors, personally, but will be interested to see how this plays out.
-
Woo, another discussion about a WoT game!
Regarding setting, I am not too much of a fan of the concept of the main setting being a mirror-world. Not in an "it would disinterest me", way, it's just that depending on the points of divergence... well, it's not the same world that I read and fell in love with!
There are definitely ways to have a fun game without having to play through the Dragon Reborn stuff, though. Setting the game several centuries earlier (but definitely post-Hawkwing), would give similar nations and cultures to the game, but without big canon events looming. Easier to have a PC Amyrlin, Queen of Andor, and monarch of Cairhien, and all that. And there's a lot room for the game to go ahead without being bound by canon conflicts.
Then there is the post-book setting, which I think could be pretty nice -- with the Last Battle over, there's a whole new Age of possibilities! And with Asha'man and female Warders being a lot more viable as concepts, too. But the drawbacks would be that it could be spoileriffic for both newcomers from the Amazon show, and those who dropped off from the books halfway through. And besides, a Fourth Era game may even seem somewhat alien -- the all-female Aes Sedai is part of the series' charms, in a way.
I would definitely enjoy a game set during the books, too... but things would get messy once the big, canon changes start happening. A post-Aiel war game would work nicely though, in my opinion.
As for political stuff, two zones would work nicely (Tar Valon and Cairhien/Andor) with a largely Aes Sedai/Warder population in the former, largely non-magic in the other. I don't think domains should necessarily be completely Arxian, though.
As for rare concepts, there are gleemen, Blademasters, wolfbrothers, Ogier... all of which could be super interesting.
I would also think it makes sense to have PC Black Ajah. The scale of them is very large in the books, and some joined just for political influence rather than for the evulz. I am not sure about male channelers outside of metaplots in the case that saidin is tainted in this setting, however.
-
@lordbelh said in Wheel of Time:
On the upside, Aes Sedai can't actually use the one power to hurt you anyway, so there's that! Unless you allow Black Ajah, but I'd probably restrict that to NPCs only.
Unfortunately, it is so very, very easy to get around this. For instance, if the Aes Sedai binds an enemy in Air, that's not hurting you, right? And then their Warder walks over, and the Aes Sedai releases them a heartbeat before the Warder stabs them.
Or heck, for a less blatant version, the Child of the Light is fighting the Warder, and the Aes Sedai just slows the Child's arm with Air, letting the Warder run them through.
-
@yyrqun said in Wheel of Time:
Not in an "it would disinterest me", way, it's just that depending on the points of divergence... well, it's not the same world that I read and fell in love with!
Regarding this particular point... no matter the intentions, game design or even players nothing will be the same world you or anyone else read and fell in love with.
Even in the best case scenario someone will be playing some concept 'wrong' by another's perhaps justified (or maybe arbitrary) standards, RP will lead to some unlikely direction that 'would never have happened in the books' or what have you.
A great deal of leeway has to be extended since RP takes its own course and no meticulously planned narrative controlled by an author will feel the same way, especially when seen through nostalgic lenses - which most of us will almost definitely have on.
-
I feel like a setting that accepts everything in the books as canon but takes up at some point after their events is the most balanced solution. We bring along everything we know and love about the series, but we get a chance to worldcraft in the ways that will lend themselves to the format when we address what has happened or will happen after Tarmon Gaidon.
It also brings things to a place of relative parity, at least in terms of gender roles, and this is an important facet to consider in the hobby as it stands in 2019. I would rather create a situation that empowers the player to take a character male, female, or other in any direction they please than have to explain why they can't. A world grown out of the events of the WoT series could allow that, and leave some space to craft a political setting that can be centered in one place, or multiple places connected by permanent gateways, or really however you want to solve the problem at that point.
I like the notion of having had a few hundred years or more pass since then. It solves the problem of feature characters from the novels rather tidily, and if you supposed that the world was somehow headed towards a new Breaking (perhaps because of in imbalance to the side of the Light?) you could really get the best of both worlds and play out a full epic storyline like we saw in the books, in a world where the events in the books are history or prehistory.
After all, the Wheel turns...
-
@gryphter I'd play a post-books game since then you can use the canonical characters as glorified quest givers without them overshadowing the entire plot.
However:
-
You lose the chance to use the Forsaken (and the whole darkfriend conspiracy) as the amazing plot device that it is to build up paranoia.
-
You don't have clear cut bad guys so you'd need to generate some. Sure, you can have rogue Aiel clans, Asha'man branches or even incite the Seanchan into taking that role but that's not the same thing.
However it would give you more politics, a wiped slate's worth of Daes Dae'mar, perfectly playable male channelers (albeit without the OMG I'M GONNA GO NUTS AND BLOW SHIT UP angle) and the chance for staff to create their own metaplot. It could work.
-
-
@gryphter If I wanted to play a Wheel of Time game (and I do), I wouldn't want to play after the books, because that's not the Wheel of Time setting that I know and love -- it's radically different from the Wheel of Time. Heck, it doesn't even have the Light and Shadow war that drives... well... the entire series. There's a reason that the series ends at that point, everything after it is a very differnt story.
-
@Seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time:
@gryphter If I wanted to play a Wheel of Time game (and I do), I wouldn't want to play after the books, because that's not the Wheel of Time setting that I know and love -- it's radically different from the Wheel of Time. Heck, it doesn't even have the Light and Shadow war that drives... well... the entire series. There's a reason that the series ends at that point, everything after it is a very differnt story.
I second this. The options for conflict become more limited, though I will grant you that if you wanted a game based more on domain building and politics, it could work.
-
@Seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time:
There's a reason that the series ends at that point, everything after it is a very differnt story.
You know better that than! There are neither beginnings or endings.
-
@Arkandel said in Wheel of Time:
@Seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time:
There's a reason that the series ends at that point, everything after it is a very differnt story.
You know better that than! There are neither beginnings or endings.
There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel sir, but it was an ending, to an age at least.
-
@Arkandel said in Wheel of Time:
@Seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time:
There's a reason that the series ends at that point, everything after it is a very differnt story.
You know better that than! There are neither beginnings or endings.
Well played. Well played.
-
Yeah, I think in my mind the solutions we saw enacted in AMoL aren't necessarily permanent. The Wheel turns, and ages come and go. I don't know how you could escape the sense that a new Age was dawning at the end of the series. We could play out this Age, or the one after, or the one after -- however far you wanted to go to feel comfortable reigniting some of those elements. Maybe here the Shadow is actually the Good Guy, because balance, and the world's too weighted to the side of Light. Maybe not too -- but the options are out there.
The simple truth is that I could take up days writing out all the interpretations and versions of WoT I'd be willing and excited to play. TL;DR -- everything. It's just all of it. The nature of the material makes it pretty easy to spin out any version of the world you want and borrow as much or as little of the books' events as you like. The possibilities are endless, and really I don't think you can go wrong -- there's an interesting story to tell no matter how you approach this stuff.
-
@gryphter said in Wheel of Time:
The simple truth is that I could take up days writing out all the interpretations and versions of WoT I'd be willing and excited to play. TL;DR -- everything. It's just all of it. The nature of the material makes it pretty easy to spin out any version of the world you want and borrow as much or as little of the books' events as you like. The possibilities are endless, and really I don't think you can go wrong -- there's an interesting story to tell no matter how you approach this stuff.
The thing is, (generic) you don't need to do any of those things. You're not writing a book - you're not even writing a story. You're creating a game based on the story in some books, so your job is to figure out which of the elements within that story you find more useful from a playability point of view, and thus what you want to prioritize.
Is it the fight of Light versus the Shadow? Well, obviously picking a point right past Tarmon Gai'don won't work.
Do you really love unstable male channelers? Then you don't want to have Saidin cleansed whether they are PC playable or not.
It's always going to be a tradeoff, but you (again, the general 'you') just need to know what your goal is. Everything will be derived from that - the geographical focus, the major factions involved, their power levels and overall balance or lack thereof, and definitely the timeline as well.
That's the fun part though, since it can easily make two different WoT games completely different from each other based on those choices.
Just keep in mind how they are implemented is more critical than what the choices are.