Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?

[bear_necessities]

@Kanye-Qwest I mean sure. That is why staff should have PCs.

[Wretched]

Unrelated to any arguments, and only because we're all talking about teh sex so much today...

/roll for damaging genitals!

[scar]

@Wretched

[bored]

@Sparks

'Good people will be good, bad people will be bad, and we should only worry about the latter and not try and make rules for the former' is a dubious approach, largely because most people are not 100% one or the other. Outside of a few fringe cases, most staffers probably think they're ethical, good and right. So no ethical guidelines for anyone, right? In the reality of these gray areas, having guidelines can be valuable. Even for the 'good' people, whoever they are.

I know a few staffers are ruffled because you consider yourselves More Ethical than Average (tm) and yet also evidently fuck around on your NPCs a whole lot while handing out magic swords and babies, which some people consider shady as fuck by default. This is causing a truly bizarre amount of teeth-gnashing and bizarre testimonials wherein people talk about all the favors they're receiving and then ask for validation that they're good, really, and did nothing wrong. It seems pretty silly. No one is going to stop you, and if you're confident there are never any negative consequences, so be it.

[Sunny]

@Wretched

I feel like this is more a discussion than an argument? Maybe? There's been a lot of good stuff for thought from most of the perspectives here; I've been enjoying it, for the most part.

@bored

It's a discussion, people have different perspectives, we've been talking about it. I'm not sure why people talking about their experiences in relation to the topic is particularly weird or problematic.

ETA: Also, conflating 'sex and romance should not be off the table as plot elements' and 'fucking around on npcs handing out magic swords and babies' isn't a good look.

[Roz]

@bored said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I know a few staffers are ruffled because you consider yourselves More Ethical than Average (tm) and yet also evidently fuck around on your NPCs a whole lot while handing out magic swords and babies, which some people consider shady as fuck by default.

I mean, you're now making a fair amount of assumptions regarding who is doing what and how often they're doing it.

[Groth]

I think if you want to take the thread in that direction you may need to make a hog pit topic.

[bored]

@Roz We're talking about core ethical policy and divides on how people even conceive of NPCs.

You discussed it happening on a game, publicly. That means it's at the very least, no big deal there, and it means those staffers do not see that ethical conflict. It means all of them are free to do it. Exactly many extremities go in how many holes for what kind of quid pro quo is pretty irrelevant at that point.

[Wretched]

@Sunny Fair, and i agree re: perspectives.

[Sunny]

@bored

So, hi. I ran Ashes to Ashes (and several other games), run OTT games (tho it's on a hiatus right now), and do tabletop storytelling. I was posting my perspective as a staffer and a storyteller, not as a player on a particular game. That I share an opinion with the people whose game I play on, because I feel safe there? It's because they have policies that I find reasonable. This whole 'sex and romance are on the table as plot elements' is a line I've been pushing since Ashes. So.

[Thenomain]

@Wretched, you are the man this board deserves.

God rest our souls.

[BobGoblin]

Can someone sufficiently summarize the debate? My grog drunk state is interpreting it as:

Group A: Staff should use NPCs to facilitate RP and the plot, utilizing Staff operated PCs for personal RP and interaction (upto and including anal sex TS).

Group B: Staff should use NPCs for their anal sex because then their PCs don't have to deal with consequences of warts?

[Ganymede]

I have a very strong opinion about staff NPCs that end up TSing PCs. This could be because of my profession.

I mentioned before that an ethical staffer shouldn't be limited in what they do; however, what constitutes an "ethical" staffer varies from person to person. We have tossed phrases like "ethical" and "abuse" without really giving much in the way of definition, but what I think everyone can agree with is that a staffer: (1) needs to have a set of ethics to constrain their inherent power on a game; and (2) a staffer can use their inherent power on a game that can hurt another player.

People that work professions that either require or often create strong emotional or personal ties are ethically constrained from engaging in sexual relations with their clients. It doesn't matter if that professional is kind, gentle, or ethical, as others would use that word: they are in a position which is of such power or connection that the profession binds the professional to avoid any potential abuse. And while it is a stretch to suggest that a staff member on a game is akin to a doctor or a lawyer in their relationship with any player, it is not as much of a stretch to point out that players are often dependent upon staffers for their engagement with a game.

I am of the opinion that a blanket ban, while constraining the otherwise-ethical staffers in how they may engage with players, provides a baseline of behavior -- an ethical rule -- that can inform or assuage players as to what sort of RP staff may press them into. Were I to run a game, I would probably insist on such a ban. While many good stories may be cut short or snipped by such a rule, I would point out that players can RP NPCs that can engage in TS in a PRP.

And, yes, while I recognize that staff are also players, I cannot overlook how staff have powers and duties beyond players.

[Sunny]

@Ganymede

I think it's inappropriate, regardless of profession, to equate roleplayed sex out to real life sex. That part of the premise is what I disagree with.

ETA: And I disagree with it vehemently, but I've said so repeatedly already so I'm not going into it again.

[surreality]

@Ganymede said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I am of the opinion that a blanket ban, while constraining the otherwise-ethical staffers in how they may engage with players, provides a baseline of behavior -- an ethical rule -- that can inform or assuage players as to what sort of RP staff may press them into.

I think this also goes both ways; it informs players of something that they cannot demand staff to provide for them. That's a non-trivial protection for members of staff, and cements their right to say 'no' as well, even to players who have firmly adopted a 'you are here to provide a service for me and give me the scenes I ask for' mentality.

[Auspice]

Something I have also been considering throughout this thread whenever the 'Staff are volunteers!' comes up: volunteer work is still work. If you volunteer for an organization IRL, you are expected to comport yourself as a professional and you don't really get to pick and choose (generally) what you do. You might get to choose a department or request a 'top 3,' but then you're handed work. You do that work.

When we say 'you need to make yourself available to all players, even the ones you might not like,' we aren't saying: 'you have to suffer the abusive players.' We're saying: 'even if that girl is annoying or that guy poses like he's a piece of set dressing, you need to be willing to interact with them.' We're saying: 'even if taking your NPC out to provide that plot hook to the PC that poses that god awful accent isn't as fun as going to RP with your bff for the second day in a row, you need to do it because they asked.'

It's being responsible with your position of power. It's volunteer work, but it's still work. You took on a mantle of responsibility and if you can't handle those responsibilities, then maybe it's time to step down. Anyone can run plot as a player. Almost every single game out there welcomes and practically begs for players to run plot. If you want to run plot with the freedoms to run it however you want and for whomsoever you want... then relieve yourself of the burdens and demands of being a Staffer to do so.

[Doozer]

@Wretched

[Ganymede]

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I think it's inappropriate, regardless of profession, to equate roleplayed sex out to real life sex. That part of the premise is what I disagree with.

I think it is inappropriate too, but I remember a time when players literally flipped their shit when they found out a player that they had "staked out" as their territory dared to engage in TS with someone else under an alt.

I remember a time when someone flipped their shit at me for doing this.

I don't think either of us have time for that kind of shit, and I don't think staff should be concerning themselves with that possibility either.

---

@surreality said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I think this also goes both ways; it informs players of something that they cannot demand staff to provide for them. That's a non-trivial protection for members of staff, and cements their right to say 'no' as well, even to players who have firmly adopted a 'you are here to provide a service for me and give me the scenes I ask for' mentality.

This as well. Ethical rules are often as much a shield as a sword.

[Groth]

@Auspice said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

It's being responsible with your position of power. It's volunteer work, but it's still work. You took on a mantle of responsibility and if you can't handle those responsibilities, then maybe it's time to step down. Anyone can run plot as a player. Almost every single game out there welcomes and practically begs for players to run plot. If you want to run plot with the freedoms to run it however you want and for whomsoever you want... then relieve yourself of the burdens and demands of being a Staffer to do so.

Well, part of the reasons most games practically beg players to run plot is that most of the Staffers usually don't want to deal with all the headaches involved with actually running scenes for players and focus on the back-end work and keeping those anomaly jobs numbers down since that can be done at your own pace and you rarely even have to talk to a player.

[Sunny]

@Ganymede said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I think it's inappropriate, regardless of profession, to equate roleplayed sex out to real life sex. That part of the premise is what I disagree with.

I think it is inappropriate too, but I remember a time when players literally flipped their shit when they found out a player that they had "staked out" as their territory dared to engage in TS with someone else under an alt.

I remember a time when someone flipped their shit at me for doing this.

I don't think either of us have time for that kind of shit, and I don't think staff should be concerning themselves with that possibility either.

I remember lots of this sort of thing, too -- I blocked someone less than a year ago from my life entirely because they were a terrible person around TS and IC relationships, it was kind of a nightmare. I mean, I've lived this.

As a staffer, however, I disagree that I don't have time for that shit: I do. I have plenty of time to kick it right the fuck off of my game.