A fully OC supers MU

[Coin]

@Atomic said in A fully OC supers MU:

So, to out myself as a complete nerd:

I got started with Champions in the 80's -- Mutants and Masterminds, to me, seems like a speedy and streamlined(simple) combat resolution system, perfect for online use. Of the recent supers games I played on, those that used the system had pretty great playerbases, and there was that edge of spice you get when you cannot utterly predict an outcome(and usually no narrative arguments).

Additionally, I ran a lot of scenes. The biggest slowdown was never the mechanics of the system; it was, of course, pose lag or slow player response. +rolls and interpretation thereof didn't take long at all by comparison.

That said, I have been looking at a couple other systems. I know that the M&M system has had several MU iterations and has been coded numerous times, and that the other systems if I use them might need some developing from scratch. If there's usable M&M code out there, that makes life a lot easier.

As for actual setup, I'm looking at a couple hosting solutions. If anyone has advice there, I'll happily take it. I figure I'd grab a yearly package and stand it up, then look for assistance with tool code depending on which codebase I go with(again, advice taken).

..and then I'll talk about my other OC supers MU idea. >.>

Use Ares.

I mean, honestly, you just---you can't go wrong with it. I don't know if M&M is coded for Ares yet or not, but it's worth it. Just the scene system alone is worth it.

I personally prefer something less crunchy than M&M. In fact, for superhero games, i tend to prefer something more freeform and narrative-focused. But that's your call.

[Alamias]

@Atomic said in A fully OC supers MU:

So, to out myself as a complete nerd:

I got started with Champions in the 80's

I also started with Champions way back when it was a box set. There is nothing quite like playing a HERO superbrick and rolling 25d6 for a punch...it is very satisfying.

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[surreality]

@Atomic said in A fully OC supers MU:

As for actual setup, I'm looking at a couple hosting solutions. If anyone has advice there, I'll happily take it.

Digital Ocean has been consistently solid. They're monthly rather than annual, but for $10/month you have all you need and more control of your virtual server without the potential hassles of shared hosting.

[Saturna]

@Coin said in A fully OC supers MU:

@Atomic said in A fully OC supers MU:

So, to out myself as a complete nerd:

I got started with Champions in the 80's -- Mutants and Masterminds, to me, seems like a speedy and streamlined(simple) combat resolution system, perfect for online use. Of the recent supers games I played on, those that used the system had pretty great playerbases, and there was that edge of spice you get when you cannot utterly predict an outcome(and usually no narrative arguments).

Additionally, I ran a lot of scenes. The biggest slowdown was never the mechanics of the system; it was, of course, pose lag or slow player response. +rolls and interpretation thereof didn't take long at all by comparison.

That said, I have been looking at a couple other systems. I know that the M&M system has had several MU iterations and has been coded numerous times, and that the other systems if I use them might need some developing from scratch. If there's usable M&M code out there, that makes life a lot easier.

As for actual setup, I'm looking at a couple hosting solutions. If anyone has advice there, I'll happily take it. I figure I'd grab a yearly package and stand it up, then look for assistance with tool code depending on which codebase I go with(again, advice taken).

..and then I'll talk about my other OC supers MU idea. >.>

Use Ares.

I mean, honestly, you just---you can't go wrong with it. I don't know if M&M is coded for Ares yet or not, but it's worth it. Just the scene system alone is worth it.

I personally prefer something less crunchy than M&M. In fact, for superhero games, i tend to prefer something more freeform and narrative-focused. But that's your call.

I second this. @faraday is amazing at supporting games that use the platform, and I bet you could get help making a plugin for whichever system you go with. There's enough people interested that at least one of them should have the skills!

I'm definitely not a coder, but I'm pretttttyyyyy good at writing things up and could totally help with lore/help files, setting up wikis, etc.

[Runescryer]

@RDC I think the best option is to have 2 'forms' of CGen for a M&M game.

First, the 'classic' freeform point-build.

Second, code in the new archetype CGen system from the newer Basic & Deluxe Hero's Handbook. You have a quick, nicely varied, effective PL10 character within minutes. Setup a BG, finger entries, and descriptions, and you're good to go.

[Bad at Lurking]

M&M character creation is daunting for those of us who aren't huge fans of the system. But yeah, with a CGen that automates a lot of that headache, the buy-in would be lower and make a game worth checking out.

That having been said, I'd love to see an OC supers game around, mostly because the (to the outside observer) weird caste system in FC and mixed games comes off as a little unfriendly and strange. Not to mention the, ah, 'uniquely entitled' mindset of a great many of the players regarding one's time and energy, if you happen to playing a character that is their favored wank material.

OC games seem to skip that nonsense in favor of their own brand of nonsense.

[Runescryer]

@Bad-at-Lurking The new 'Quickstart' system for M&M 3e is...

1. Choose a base archetype: 20 choices like Paragon, Powerhouse, Mystic, Speedster, Energy controller, etc....

2. Make 4 or 5 choices to refine your character idea.

Example: The first choice for the Battlesuit Archetype is defining how you got the suit, which in turn define some of your basic Abilities. The choices are:

-Genius: (Tony Stark) You invented the battlesuit you wear. Your physical Abilities are pretty average, but your Intellect is near superhuman
-Military: (War Machine) You are the pilot of an experimental military battlesuit. Physical Abilities are a little bit above average, average mental Abilities
-Accident: (X-O Man O War, Armadillo) You found the battlesuit by chance/accident. All Abilities are average to slightly above average.

Based on your choice, your initial Abilities block is chosen.

Next, you choose 2 Advantages packages. The choices are:

-Combatant: You're trained in fighting using the battlesuit. You get the Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Improved Initiative, Interpose, and Move-By Advantages.
-Inventor: You have a gift for making technological innovations. You get the Eidetic Memory, Improvised Tools, Inventor, Ultimate Effort (Technology), and Well Informed Advantages.
-Lucky: You're well intentioned, but a good part of your success boils down to sheer luck. You get the Beginner's Luck, Luck (2), Redirect, and Teamwork Advantages.
-Scientist: You're a highly trained scientist with your own research lab. You get the Equipment (3; Headquarters), Skill Mastery (Expertise: Science) and Skill Mastery (Expertise: Technology) Advantages. Your Headquarters comes pre-defined.
-Wealthy: You're rich. You get the Attractive and Benefit 4 (Multi-Millionaire) Advantages.

And so on for Skills and Powers. All the choices have pre-set values as well as assigned Random Numbers so you can completely roll your way through CGen if you want.

You then add in a pre-set Defenses stat block, choose your Complications, and you're done.

Just with those few examples, it's easy to see that there are a multitude of possibilities, styles, and character themes that can be created with the Quickstart system. You can create a classic Tony Stark Battlesuit character, or a rich CEO with no technical experience themselves that has his company's R&D team create a battlesuit for him, or a mechanic in the US Army or Air Force that becomes the test pilot of an experimental battlesuit, or dozens of other concepts.

[Ghost]

One of the things that is really good about using M&M3 is that it does one thing that the "trait description" games can't do: BALANCE

While the "trait description" system worries over what the difference between Tier 1-4 characters are and whether or not someone will abuse Dr. Strange's powers, M&M3 uses a point-buy system that makes every character made fit within a specific range of capability. Two people could use the m&m3 system to make two different versions of Dr. Strange, and so long as their point value remains the same it doesn't matter so much how they chose their powers; their top-level capability has a ceiling they cannot pass.

A PL10 Iron Man vs a PL10 Captain Marvel are always going to be able to duke it out with relatively equal footing. There is no "Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit" scenario in M&M3 so long as they were both built to be in the same PL range.

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[Arkandel]

@RDC Question: In your experience are people applying for one PL range more than others? For example assuming all levels are equally available do you see a significant number of players creating PCs in the average level range? Are they top-heavy? What's the ballpark figure for that distribution?

[ZombieGenesis]

I've run a number of M&M MUs over the years(in every edition since first) and in my experience people will app for whatever limit you let them. I tried running a game that allowed for PLs 10-12 and almost no one apped for PL 10 or 11. It was all PL 12 even if their actual concept spoke to a PL 10 character. No one wanted to be "left behind" or "weak".

My main issue with M&M is the same with any system really, it has buy in that will be tough to get players to wrap their heads around. There really isn't 1 PL, there are multiple PLs. In the simplest terms there is PL. But then there's Offensive and Defensive PL. Then you can break it down by attack and specific defense. A character is really only PL X if they have an Offense and Defense at PL X. It can be hard to balance that. GR has done a good job of making things easier with the newest player's handbook though.

[Arkandel]

@ZombieGenesis It's what I suspected. My backseat driver theory is that it's not a fault with the system but rather with players -- our culture is so worried about falling behind the curve in other systems that we carry that mindset to games where it's not really a concern.

[Arkandel]

Double post, again to ask for people's experiences: How do PL levels affect PrPs?

For example let's say you're about to run a plot. Four PL10+ characters show up and one who's PL8. Is there pressure for that one to suck it up?

Or if you know 80% of your playerbase is PL10+ does it mean most of your PrPs are going to aim for that range? Wouldn't it be silly if you advertise a PL8 plot and only PL12s show up?

These aren't rhetorical questions, I don't know the answers.

[ZombieGenesis]

And don't get me wrong, I'm not dumping on M&M. I really enjoy M&M. My TT group uses it for our DC comics campaign and used it regularly until we found Supers RED. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't or can't be used to run a game. I'm just sharing my experiences from running a game using M&M in the past.

1: Some people won't play there for various reasons because you're using a system/because you're using M&M.
2: I would set 1 PL and have all characters make characters at that PL. Or have very defined guidelines for what types of characters fit into what PL.
3: Be prepared to have to really help people understand that they should have both offensive and defensive stats that equal X. Here you start getting into equations and some people are going to tune right out. On my game, I had a command that broke these things down as best as we could.
4: If you're using 3E be prepared for people who do not like how Impervious works. Also, some people really dislike the utility power Affliction. There will be debates about it.
5: Be ready to fully enforce a PL offset rule. Otherwise, certain players will sink one side of a PL equation to completely make the other side OP. Tanking Dodge to create an OP Toughness for instance.
6: Even if you try to account for everything(and that's really just not possible) the system can still be broken by people who are familiar enough with it. The idea of Power Levels is good in theory but I've found that, in practice, it's not as solid a mechanic as I'd like it to be.

[ZombieGenesis]

@Arkandel In my experience, you could run a scene fairly comfortably for characters that are within 2 PLs of each other. But that's really a very vast generalization. Power Level is really a murky barometer at best to compare characters by. Sure, on paper, 2 PL 10 characters should be pretty even. Except this PL 10 character is only PL 10 because they've maxed out a number of skills and have a PL 10 mental power. Their defense comes in at PL 6 so when they get punched by this PL 10 brick they go splat. Power Level is something that needs to be carefully balanced and weighed by everyone involved in a game/scene. You can't really make a generic "This is a PL X situation". More often than not I'd have to promote scenes like, "Ok, so in this scene there will be PL 10 physical attacks being thrown around all over the place and up to PL 8 mental attacks, and PL 9 puzzles to solve." So people could decide how comfortable they were with their character entering a scene. And even then the game unbalances fairly easily when certain combinations of feats and powers are used.

As an aside, this is why my group switched to Supers RED. They have a built-in mechanic for balancing characters of different levels that we found works way better. Characters are rated on the number of dice they're built out of. So say we have a scene where this guy wants to bring his favorite power level 20 dice character into a scene with a bunch of 25 dice characters. Instead of just doing it and "sucking it up" he's given a pool of extra dice to help compensate for the power difference to show how he's taken measures or beefed up to play with the more powerful heroes for a while.

And, again, these are all just things from my own experiences playing and running M&M both online and in the real world.

[Runescryer]

So, for those unfamiliar with M&M's PL system, it sort of acts as a combination of guide for how many points your character is built on & and upper limit check for 1) your To Hit bonuses & amount of damage you do with the attack, 2) your defensive bonuses and the amount of resistance to damage you have, 3) Fortitude & Will saves (for resisting physical & mental effects), and 4) Attribute & Skill bonus.

Example: If you have a PL 10, your Attack Bonus and Damage for any attack is capped at 2 * PL, so a total of 20. That means you can have a Strength of 10 and a total Attack Bonus on Unarmed Attacks of 10, or a Strength of 12 and a total Attack Bonus of 8, or a Strength of 6 and a total Attack Bonus of 14; any combination that totals 20. Averaging out (Strength 10, Attack Bonus 10) means that at that Strength level, your character can lift 25 Tons. With Strength 12, you can lift 100 tons (each point is double the value before it). At Strength 6 (minor superhuman level), your character can lift 3,200 lbs. So, the system ensures that your character doesn't have an overwhelming attack with lots of damage and lots of Attack Bonus. Same with the Defense/Toughness cap; it ensures that the better you can dodge an attack, the less capable you are at shrugging off the attacks that do land.

The other thing is the 'scale' of each PL. The general 'starting point' for M&M is PL 10. That gives you a character on par with (using the DC characters) Booster Gold, Cyborg, Batgirl, Beast Boy, Kid Flash, Mera, Cosmic Boy, and Brainiac 5. So, an average member of the Titans or Legion of Superheroes. Superman & Wonder Woman are at PL 15, Robin & Arsenal are at PL 8

Now, mentioned in my earlier post above, the new Quickstart CGen for M&M speeds up the process and simplifies it for players new to the system by a phenomenal degree. It's actually quicker to make a M&M character using Quickstart than it is to make a character in 5e D&D now, IMO. So right there, you're lowering the learning curve of the system by giving new players a highly accessible way of creating an effective character and letting them see what the values mean through gameplay experience, rather than having to read through the rules and make the calculations themselves.

Finally (sorry for the length here), ideas from my own long-gestating plans for an M&M OC game in regards to CGen:

-Players are limited to a maximum of 1 PL 14 character, 2 PL 12 characters, and 4 characters of PL 10 or less; total of 7 alts. If a character reaches PL 12 or 14 through experience and the player already has the maximum number for that slot, they need to drop one of the characters or put one in storage. I think this allows for a good balance between maximum number of alts and room for character growth.

-Players are limited to 1 Legacy Character and 1 Homage character. The Homage character is fairly obviously based off of a major Comics character, but has some unique changes to make them slightly distinct. A Legacy character has some form of heroic legacy tied to them; either the Legacy has been handed down to them (Captain America passing on the shield and name to...) or they're starting a Legacy that's defined by the player getting to craft specific lore around their character (Atlantis, Amazons, Super Soldier programs, alien species, mystic traditions, 'fictional' nations, ect.).

[Runescryer]

@ZombieGenesis The truth is, any system can, and has, been broken by players that know it inside and out. The only real remedy is Staff-review of characters, which can take a long time. Another point for the Quickstart system: it creates well-balanced characters as well. So, a player could create a character via Quickstart and get playing almost instantly, while their uber MinMax PL 14 character goes through CGen and the approval process, with Staff evaluating strengths & flaws.

[ZombieGenesis]

@Runescryer I shudder to use the word balanced and "Mutants and Masterminds" because it is so subjective. That said, and as I said earlier, I'm not poo-pooing on M&M just being realistic about its limits and how it will be received on a MUX(I've done it, several times, and have experienced everything I've said several times).

For instance, you get a player who apps a character with a single offensive power that equals a PL 6 offensive ability. They're PL 11. You explain that they really need to bump that up but it doesn't fit their concept. They have to dedicate points and up a power/ability to meet the M&M PL limits just to be competitive at that PL. It's why I so strongly hate write-ups like The Joker in the DC books. His offense is artificially high so he can compete in fights with Batman.

That's my problem with the power level system. It may not be others though. If you have people who buy into that system, enjoy it, and want to play it great! But there is going to be resistance because it forces people to do things they may not want to do.