A fully OC supers MU

[Arkandel]

Maybe we should look at the problem the other way around - not in what we have but what we want. This isn't really a superhero game-specific issue at all, it's just that comic books traditionally feature more fights than say, WoD MU* do, but the latter have the same problem of some plots being absolutely lethal for some characters that would be cakewalk for others so how do you balance that?

I personally haven't seen this problem being solved. Ideally you'd want to not isolate parts of your playerbase based on their progression or current power level but be able to run PrPs that accommodate as many people as possible.

Or to put it the other way around you never want to 'waste' plot. Ideally each time you have a GM who wants to throw a PrP and players who're available and want one you'd rather they were able to just throw something balanced for all of them at the same time.

I think what @ZombieGenesis says is that even with PLs the issue isn't really solved because player knowledge of how to optimize builds is as important as the actual PL rating itself.

[ZombieGenesis]

Yeah, I guess my point is that while M&M is a fun system that really hits the superhero genre on the nose it really works best with a group of people who all understand and buy-in to the PL system. The PL system is the biggest strength and biggest weakness of M&M and some players just won't be able to either wrap their heads around it or buy into it.

The pros of M&M though include the fact that I think the entire system is available for free online via the hero SRD. Yeah, you can find it here. If you take the time to code up the archetypes system from the new hero's handbook it can make c-gen fairly quick and easy. And combat can be fairly quick with the caveat of characters with a ton of feats which can slow things down considerably as things need to be explained and what not.

[faraday]

@Arkandel said in A fully OC supers MU:

I personally haven't seen this problem being solved.

Stepping outside supers for a second, I think that we have seen this problem being solved across RPGs in general (TT, MMO, MU). Some options include:

• Everybody stays with a comparable level/skill bracket so you don't have that disparity in the first place.
• GM 'pulls punches' for underpowered players to make it fair. Like on TV where the wimpy good guy gets matched up with the wimpy bad guy in the final fight.
• Sidekick system where lower-powered players get artificially "leveled-up" in some capacity to hang with their higher-powered pals.

I don't see why you couldn't also apply this to a superhero game. I mean, just call it the "Black Widow/Hawkeye Hero Halo" or something

[Arkandel]

@faraday I stand corrected in that regard. That's true, and the other way to solve it is to enforce balance across the board by whatever means (premade characters, a very straight forward system making it impossible to screw it up, etc).

[ZombieGenesis]

@faraday Supers RED does this with a mechanic called Competency Dice. So you can create Batman at the 25 dice level and he works great with other Gotham types who are made of similar levels of dice. When he goes and hangs with the JLA, however, who are made of 35 dice he gets a pool of 10 Competency Dice to represent measures he would have taken to tackle the higher level of challenges involved with the JLA. It works really well we find and allows you to use the same characters across multiple tiers of power levels.

[Runescryer]

@Arkandel I totally get what you and @ZombieGenesis are saying here; I even agree to an extent. My opinion is just that no matter what system is used, someone is going to come along and abuse the Hell out of it, because that's their thing. Not necessarily doing it so that they have a massive advantage over others, but because of the challenge of the build. Even if it doesn't make logical sense, it's a challenge that they engage in, a puzzle to solve. There's a thread on an M&M Facebook page right now about 'how to build Gambit at PL 5'. Most of us are going '....Why?', but that's the challenge and attraction for that player; how to build a character he enjoys with sub-optimal limitations placed on it.

I also get what you're saying about 'wasting plot'. But, strictly my own opinion, comics and superheroes aren't as 'plug and play' for plots in the same way, say, a fantasy RPG or science-fiction RPG, or WoD. Comics & Superhero plots are not solely defined by their scale/power level, but by the villain behind the plot, and Supervillains tend to stick to one hero or group the majority of the time. The Fantastic Four go up against Dr. Doom all the time because of that initial point of contact between Reed and Victor in college, which has blossomed into rivalry. There's no logical reason why the Avengers don't square off against Doom and his latest plan to conquer Earth/the Universe/Whatever, but there's not as much tension, history, and connection there, so it's a rare occurrence. Same with Magneto & the X-Men. Even after Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were in the Avengers and discovered he's their father, Magneto is mostly the X-Men's foe to deal with. In other games, you can have personal vendettas between protagonist & antagonist, sure. But mostly, you have a generalized situation with an all-purpose Antagonist/Villain/Challenge because you don't know which players are showing up to the Event.

And, again IMO, this is another point in the favor of an OC's super game over an FC game: no established relationships going back decades of comics history, either between protagonists or between a protagonist & antagonist. It's a clean slate. So, your Dr. Doom expy can be a full-on global threat fought by whatever hero group happens to be on hand. Your metahuman supremacist is fair game for any group to foil, rather than just one particular group of metahumans trying to show a positive front to humanity that they're not all threats and would-be conquerors.

In regards to disparate levels of power being more lethal to less 'experienced' characters, that's true. But, nowhere does it say that the less-powerful characters are required to square off against the Big Bad directly. Time and again, the Justice League face Darkseid. Batman is completely outgunned by a character who is more powerful than the team's heavy hitters of Superman and Wonder Woman. But, Batman still either wins, or contributes to the group win. He takes down Paradeamons that are slightly more powerful than him but still manageable so that the big guns aren't swarmed while concentrating on Darkseid. He feints and uses attacks that have no chance of damaging Darkseid, but open him up to other attacks from teammates that can do real damage. He stealths off and attaches explosives to Darkseid's stockpile of planet-destroying artillery, then threatens Darkseid into ending the fight and giving up, or having Apokalypse blown to atoms.

In other words, Batman's player knows his character's limitations in a fight and figures out how to contribute accordingly.

The same goes in the opposite direction: the hero that's way overpowered for the situation/event. GM's/Event runners can use distractions to prevent the Kryptonian from wrapping up a scene in a single round. Superman or Thor shows up to stop a bank robbery; gang leader says something to the effect of 'Boss thought you'd show up. So we took precautions..' then activates a series of explosions on a bridge, forcing the OP character to save lives instead of bust some easy skulls. A stray blast sets off an explosion and the OP character has to concentrate on rescues & evacuations & crisis management while the others fight. Or, the 'precaution' that the bank robbers take is a more appropriate powered thug/villain (like Rhino) bursting out of a nearby van they were waiting in just in case Superman/Thor tried to stop the robbery; the OP character now has an appropriate challenge to be focused on while the others deal with the robbers and maybe help with the new bruiser. Is it as satisfying? Depends on the player. When I've played Kryptonians on freeform games, I've voluntarily taken my character out of the battle by these methods so that the other heroes in the event/scene get equal time to shine.

[ZombieGenesis]

As I've said, I think M&M could certainly work well in for a game. I had a blast on some of the games I've run(the first run of Sovereign City and most of the times I brought up Empire Bay were great). And you're right, any system can be broken without GM oversight. It's just that M&M 3E requires more oversight than a lot of other games out. It also has system baggage that some other systems don't have to deal with(player buy-in for the PL system being the biggest one). But all these things can be overcome with knowledgable staff, tutorial rooms, and players willing to lean on the SRD.

[Arkandel]

To be frank any player who goes to a comic-book MU*, picks a powerful character then tries to resolve plots by himself is a jerk.

It's kind of an honor system even in the comics themselves. Thor doesn't go after Daredevil's goons - of course he can take on a bunch of ninjas. He goes after his own threats.

Ultimately I think we might be trying to solve a social problem through mechanics here.

[Runescryer]

@Arkandel We absolutely are trying to solve problematic social behavior through mechanics. But, there aren't many choices for trying to be pro-active about it. The only other option is a wait-and-see policy where you strip the player of the character after they've been a disruptive a-hole for however long. And I also don't like the wait and see because it smacks too much of wrongfunning and 'You're not playing the character how you should/how we want'. Banning for being an abusive creep in Chat is one thing; banning for playing a character to it's ultimate potential is an entirely different matter, IMO.

[Arkandel]

@Runescryer The reason I'm bringing this up isn't so much that we need to strip people of their characters, it's that there may be better ways to set a culture than to strong-arm the solution.

The issue here isn't Superman ruining Black Canary's plot. This can be approached organically by the GM or other players.

The real issue is how this skews the game's composition and, by association, theme itself. The example I gave before still stands; if 80% of your playerbase is made up by PL12 characters then not only are chances good most plots will be ran for that power level but also it creates a catch-22 situation where players see this and roll at that level too so they can fit in, perpetuating the demographic imbalance.

Or in other words if almost all of your characters are JLA level it's unlikely you'll have many plots ran in the streets of Gotham because... why would they be?

[Runescryer]

@Arkandel My approach/solution is to adapt the idea of 'spheres' from WoD games. Have one Storyteller per 'sphere'. In fact, it's modeled to resemble a comic book bullpen. One 'Editor-In-Chief' (headwiz) and one Editor per 'title'. They don't have to run every story for a 'sphere', but would be responsible for approving a PRP or another member of Staff running a plot in their 'Sphere' to ensure there's no or minimal conflict with the overall current story arc. So, for a 'traditional' supers game:

Editor-In-Chief/Headwiz
-City Level (run/oversee general Events & Plots involving the city)
Metropolis Editor
Gotham Editor
NYC Editor
-Line/Team Editors
JLA Editor
Avengers Editor
Fantastic Four Editor
Titans Editor
X-Men Editor
BatFamily Editor

Yes, this is very ancilliary Staff heavy, but it's also heavy with a number of Teams, each demanding attention. And, this can be a good starting point for people interested in Staffing, but with no previous Staff experience. Sort of an 'Intern' position.

Now, let's apply this to the game being proposed by @Atomic; an Academy game that doesn't necessarily deal with 'outside' characters & teams (at least not yet)

Editor-In-Chief (still the Headwiz)
'Academy' Editor

That's all you need to start, aside from the usual support Staff (building, coding, wiki, app, etc.)
As the game grows and stretches out beyond the original premise (if it does), you add in more Editors as needed.

Start with a City Editor for the city the Academy is based in/near and start bring in independent supers.
Add in a Team Editor when the individual supers decide to form an initial team. Add in more Team Editors as new teams start to form from newer solo heroes working together..

It's not just a matter of having Staff with lots of stock story ideas for running plots. You figure out/scale the plot idea to be challenging to the lower level, then increase the difficulty based on who shows up. Surprise villains suddenly popping up and increasing the challenge to the heroes is a standard superhero trope; it's not like you can run a WoD plot of servants of the Prince going after the Sabbat, a more powerful character falls into the plot and joins the group, and then just spring a surprise Black Hand/Antideluvian on the party to make things more challenging because of the added PC.

[Please Delete]

This post is deleted!

[Runescryer]

Another thing that I've been pondering, and which goes to the concerns of @Arkandel regarding disparity in levels...

Superhero stories are naturally geared towards characters of different levels and capabilities. For the Avengers, You have power levels ranging from Thor and Hulk, to Iron Man and Vision, to Captain America, Hawkeye and Black Widow. Everyone contributes according to their capabilities. Same with the JLA, same with the X-Men, same with the Titans. Having Thor and Hulk on the team doesn't make Hawkeye underpowered or unnecessary in a story/plot/event. It does, however, make good planning of a plot a necessity to make sure there's a variety of challenges to suit a variety of potential participants. And if you do plan on having a group of flunkies that the 'lower powered' characters will take care of while the big guns engage the Boss and now Hawkeye or Batman types show up, one of the Big Guns can easily sweep the board clear of the flunkies in a round or two, then get back to the Boss fight.

[Atomic]

For any who watch the thread: I'm getting my hosting after the holiday weekend. I haven't settled on a codebase yet, though.

4CC and its contemporaries spoiled me a bit for M&M code. If there's bits out there ready to install for dice, chargen/sheet, etc, that would drive my decision, I think.

[Please Delete]

This post is deleted!

[Sparks]

If you don't need a lot of custom code (beyond like, a new dice engine module for your specific system), I would honestly recommend AresMUSH. As noted, Ruby is a more modern and less niche programming skill than MUSHcode, and you get the benefits of the awesome web portal and scene system.

If you need a ton of custom code, go Evennia; it's way more bare-bones than Ares, but it's designed to be a platform on which you build a more customized game. And if there's some way in which Ares' great web portal doesn't match your usage case, Evennia's built atop Django (a fairly widely used system for building custom web applications) and is thus easily changed in drastic ways. Plus, like Ruby, Python is a modern and widely used programming language, so it should be easy to find coders for it.

If you want to get really weird, Python is right now arguably the most common language for machine learning work; you could do things like use a GAN to generate dynamic PBs for your characters in chargen like this does! (I might have prototyped doing this on my Evennia sandbox. It's an incredibly dumb idea; loading a GAN into a game server is not what I'd call "the best use of resources". But that has never stopped me from prototyping off-the-wall stuff before.)

If you have an existing codebase in MUSHcode, of course, just use Rhost or MUX2 or Penn or whatever.

But lacking an existing legacy codebase, for quickest time-to-open with the most modern interfaces? Use Ares, and either use one of the existing modules to replace FS3, find a way to use FS3 for superpowers, or get a Ruby coder to write you a new module with the system you want to use.

[ZombieGenesis]

For my Heroes & Villains reboot I did a version of 4CC(which is just a reskin of FASERIP, right?) If you're interested I could give you the plugin to play with as you like.

[Atomic]

I am presently learning python for work, but just getting started. Long term, Evennia will probably work for me, if I can find a python coder to carry me until I can make things and not break everything.

To stick with M&M as the system, I'll have to generate a die roller, charsheets, chargen, and point trackers. I'm guessing most of the standard utilities are repo'd out there somewhere.

[Tehom]

@Atomic said in A fully OC supers MU:

I am presently learning python for work, but just getting started. Long term, Evennia will probably work for me, if I can find a python coder to carry me until I can make things and not break everything.

To stick with M&M as the system, I'll have to generate a die roller, charsheets, chargen, and point trackers. I'm guessing most of the standard utilities are repo'd out there somewhere.

If you decide to go with Evennia, they have a pretty lively IRC that's connected to a Discord channel, and people are usually pretty fast to answer questions. I'm also happy to help with questions about python/django if you're stuck on how to implement or fix something - I can be reached either by messaging here or on Discord (I'd show up in the mods list of the Evennia discord channel).

[Sparks]

@Tehom said in A fully OC supers MU:

If you decide to go with Evennia, they have a pretty lively IRC that's connected to a Discord channel, and people are usually pretty fast to answer questions. I'm also happy to help with questions about python/django if you're stuck on how to implement or fix something - I can be reached either by messaging here or on Discord (I'd show up in the mods list of the Evennia discord channel).

A second on this for the Evennia Discord. Very helpful community if you plan to do anything with Evennia, and I found it exceptionally useful when I was starting out and learning Evennia's overall structure and design philosophy. (Or even now when I do particularly wacky stuff on my Evennia sandbox, where I'm slowly building a reusable generic foundation for MUSH-like games.)

I'll add that there's an Ares Discord I hear superb things about as well for folks running Ares, though I gather it's somewhat more focused on running a game as well where Evennia's Discord is fairly heavily focused on developing one.

If you are interested in doing development in general, I figure it's really worthwhile to know both of the "modern" systems. Hence why I've got an Ares sandbox as well which I've started toying with extending. (On which note, I should probably go track down the address for the Ares Discord at some point myself.)