MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity

[Joyeuse]

@peasoupling said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

but who even writes a "business description" and a "going to Walmart at 2am description" anyway?

I also feel called out here, because I do that exact thing for the characters I've made so far. At least once I found out about multidescs and +desc systems lol.

[mietze]

@Seraphim73 yep. It has been really interesting going back and revisiting things with them. I try to not review in advance (since my bigs are big enough I do not feel I should screen, since it's important for them to see my authentic reactions too) It's also prompted some pretty awesome discussions, especially how a lot of themes havent changed or subtle differences, ways some things have gotten better/worse. Or about a broader segment of entertainment media (since tv and movies are going to be a little more conservative usually than social media/videos/podcasting, ect.)

[Auspice]

@Seraphim73 said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@Auspice I feel called out. Accurately, but called out.

You absolutely should.
You're weird.

[Derp]

@mietze said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

More broadly, we do have this discussion pop up frequently around racism/homophobia in particular and "historic era" or "history era inspired" mushes too. That's an often uncomfortable one to negotiate too, but again eventually the staff or gamerunner are going to pick the parameters and they may be realistic in some ways but not in others, and the players are just going to have to deal with it or not play there.

I mean, this crops up in fantasy too. Dark Sun, for example. It's one of my favorite DnD campaign settings. Very low magic, very harsh conditions, very survival oriented Mad Max style.

Also, it has a shitload of slavery and genocide and persecution in general.

People tend to get their hackles up about that one. But you take those out and you're no longer playing Dark Sun, because those things are as integral to the setting as interpersonal conflict is to Mad Max.

Sometimes, you can't win 'em all.

[Ganymede]

@Seraphim73

It was smooth, and it is still smooth. Sorry, not sorry.

[Prototart]

@Derp said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@mietze said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

More broadly, we do have this discussion pop up frequently around racism/homophobia in particular and "historic era" or "history era inspired" mushes too. That's an often uncomfortable one to negotiate too, but again eventually the staff or gamerunner are going to pick the parameters and they may be realistic in some ways but not in others, and the players are just going to have to deal with it or not play there.

I mean, this crops up in fantasy too. Dark Sun, for example. It's one of my favorite DnD campaign settings. Very low magic, very harsh conditions, very survival oriented Mad Max style.

Also, it has a shitload of slavery and genocide and persecution in general.

People tend to get their hackles up about that one. But you take those out and you're no longer playing Dark Sun, because those things are as integral to the setting as interpersonal conflict is to Mad Max.

Sometimes, you can't win 'em all.

i would wager the difference is that w Dark Sun you generally don't get an overwhelming feeling a games there bc someone wants to own slaves whereas there have been more than a few "historic setting" ones where "i can say the n word here!" should basically be the first news file

[Seraphim73]

@Ganymede It can be smooth and still be creepy. They're not mutually exclusive. But like, he pens her in, grabs her, doesn't let go, she says "no," and he doesn't respect it. Totally fine and romantic for 1980, but definitely not okay in 2019.

[surreality]

Re: being judgy... uh, yeeeeeeah, that's gonna happen.

If someone is being an asshole, I'm not going to sit back and say to myself, "You know what, self, I'm not going to make the judgment that they're behaving like an asshole, because that would make me an asshole!" because then the only appropriate thing to judge is having a bloody opinion, ffs.

That is wayyyyyyyy too twisty a moebius strip for my tastes.

Having had buckets of people who state OOC they are men tell me how I'm 'playing a woman wrong'? Yes, I judge these people. I absolutely judge these people, and not kindly at all.

Why? Because at best, they're ignorant. More often, it's a control tactic, aimed on getting me to fall in line with what they want my character to do based on what all of these other (probably fictional or imagined) women do, based on the assumption that I'm afraid of losing my right to have tits if I don't comply, at which point I judge them all the more harshly because it doesn't work like that, and there's only so much oppressive stupidity I can truly forgive.

[Ghost]

@surreality But I wasn't talking about whether or not it's wrong to judge someone who's saying rude things, or is somehow illogically male trying to tell a female how to play a female. There is no moebius strip of logic to not believe, because no one suggested that anyone is wrong for not liking people who say rude things to them.

I'm talking about the lengths people go to to apply judgment behind the scenes while presenting the appearance of someone who isn't judgmental.

In relation to the topic of LGBTQ+ support, I think the behind the scenes culture of judgment may be a factor, which was my intended point.

[Ganymede]

@Seraphim73 said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

It can be smooth and still be creepy. They're not mutually exclusive. But like, he pens her in, grabs her, doesn't let go, she says "no," and he doesn't respect it. Totally fine and romantic for 1980, but definitely not okay in 2019.

She doesn't say "no" to his advance, actually.

HAN: You're trembling.
LEIA: I'm not trembling.
HAN: You like me because I'm a scoundrel. There aren't enough scoundrels in your life.
LEIA: I happen to like nice men.
HAN: I'm a nice man.
LEIA: No, you're not. You're --

From the screenplay: (He kisses her now, with slow, hot lips. He takes his time, as though he had forever, bending her body backward. She has never been kissed like this before, and it almost makes her faint. When he stops, she regains her breath and tries to work up some indignation, but finds it hard to talk. Suddenly, Threepio appears in the doorway, speaking excitedly.)

THREEPIO: Sir, sir! I've isolated the reverse power flux coupling!

Leia is more than capable of handling herself. We see that in every episode. This is her moment of weakness, and it is calculated so.

[Auspice]

@Ganymede said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

with slow, hot lips.

something about this in particular is just- if I ever saw this in a pose directed to my character, I'd nope out.

'slow hot lips' - ew.

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

'slow hot lips' - ew.

You'll need to take that up with Larry Kasdan.

[Auspice]

@Ganymede said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@Auspice said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

'slow hot lips' - ew.

You'll need to take that up with Larry Kasdan.

MAYBE I WILL.

He needs to tighten up.

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

He needs to tighten up.

[Thenomain]

Back on target. Back on target!

@Ganymede said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@Auspice said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

He needs to tighten up.

I am so gay for that quality of animation.

[Seraphim73]

@Ganymede Actually, it's right before what you quoted:

With that, Han takes her hand and starts to massage it.

LEIA: Stop that.
HAN: Stop what?
Leia is flushed, confused.
LEIA: Stop that! My hands are dirty.
HAN: My hands are dirty, too. What are you afraid of?
LEIA: (looking right into his eyes) Afraid?

And then comes the section you referenced. Leia said to stop rubbing her hand, Han did not. It's not like I think that it's the creepiest exchange in the world (or even in the Star Wars movies, ugh... angels...), but I don't know, I was conditioned by growing up on movies from the '80s and '90s to think that sort of persistence in the face of resistance is sexy and manly and romantic, but it doesn't seem very consent-friendly to me.

[Ganymede]

@Seraphim73 said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

... I was conditioned by growing up on movies from the '80s and '90s to think that sort of persistence in the face of resistance is sexy and manly and romantic, but it doesn't seem very consent-friendly to me.

True, but this is a movie, right? It is an idealized reality. I would argue that in this idealized reality, Leia wants Han to take the lead and realize that she likes him because, as she said, she "likes" nice men, but she wants a scoundrel.

This is not something I would suggest for my boy or girl. It was macho to spoke and drive without a seatbelt before; now we know it's kind of stupid. The same is true here.

I think we need to appreciate the way things were as much as the way things ought to be. I hope that my kids are wise enough to approach their prospective partners with the same honesty and respect that I did. I knew I wanted her, and I went and I got her.

By calling when I said I would. By splitting the check when she wanted. By showing her that we could be best friends that do naughty things together in secret.

It's amazing how far common decency can go.

And let's not forget that Han and Leia didn't make it together.

[Packrat]

I guess there is also the context that, as of Empire Strikes Back, Leia and Han have years worth of 'off screen' interactions, they are absolutely not strangers to each other.

So I at least like to think this was all within mutually understood boundaries to some extent? Which is probably optimistic.

[SabotKick72]

@Auspice said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

'slow hot lips'