RL Anger

[Ganymede]

@wizz said in RL Anger:

Three of my son's school friends today told him they will no longer be his friend because he doesn't believe in God, and when he went to his teacher for help and explained the situation, she refused to intervene and said that it's their choice and that it's okay.

Frankly, I wouldn't intervene either.

I would just tell your son that his friends are assholes.

[Derp]

@ganymede

Ehhhhhh. That -- really depends on what we're talking about when we say 'kids'.

A teacher letting a kid think it's ok to exclude someone because they don't believe in the same invisible man as you is about the most fertile ground for future bigotry I can think of.

Especially if these are very young kids.

If their parents want them to believe that strongly in whatever, private religious schools are an option, and they can pay to have their child go to the super elite place where they can solely be around their own people.

[Too Old For This]

@derp said in RL Anger:

@ganymede

Ehhhhhh. That -- really depends on what we're talking about when we say 'kids'.

A teacher letting a kid think it's ok to exclude someone because they don't believe in the same invisible man as you is about the most fertile ground for future bigotry I can think of.

Especially if these are very young kids.

If their parents want them to believe that strongly in whatever, private religious schools are an option, and they can pay to have their child go to the super elite place where they can solely be around their own people.

Nopenopenopenopenope. Separation of church and state. I FULLY support teachers opting out of religious conversations with their students. It is not their job to be a student's religious leader. I could have wished that the teacher might have given @Wizz 's child some more one on one support to help them come to terms with it? But no, I will NEVER support teachers having to also make decisions on religious matters.

[Derp]

@too-old-for-this said in RL Anger:

But no, I will NEVER support teachers having to also make decisions on religious matters.

Yeah, that's not how separation of church and state works.

In this case, given that I'm assuming it's a public school and that these children are going to attempt to exclude this student from more than just their friendship during school hours, yeah. Teachers do, in fact, have an obligation to ensure that the students understand their religious beliefs don't get to dictate what happens at the school, so, kind of the opposite of what you're likely thinking, there.

[Too Old For This]

@derp Given that students rarely get to dictate what happens in class during school hours, I'm going to guess that that isn't, in fact, it. They do not get to exclude his child from any school activity as they lack the authority to do so.

[Derp]

@too-old-for-this

I think you underestimate the amount of influence students have on other students.

In either case, STILL not how separation of church and state works.

If I were @Wizz I would definitely be making some noise. Harassment based on atheism is harassment based on religious beliefs, and is unsupportable in a religiously neutral environment. If they had told a kid they couldn’t be friends because the kid was a Jew we wouldn’t even be debating whether intervention was appropriate.

Atheism is just as much a protected religious belief, and teachers are just as obligated to ensure that students are free from that kind of harassment. Period.

[Wizz]

@ganymede said in RL Anger:

I would just tell your son that his friends are assholes.

I mean, they're not, though? They're just little nine and ten year olds, parroting the garbage their shitty parents tell them behind closed doors. I really won't hold that against them and I am not going to encourage my kiddo to either. Before today he was really fond of them, it's just a shame.

I'm more disappointed with the teacher, who had this glaringly obvious teachable moment and didn't react appropriately at all. I asked her about it directly after my son came home seething and near tears, and she admitted that she did not handle it the way she should have and a lot more kids got involved in the argument than my kid initially told me.

She's promised to address it with the class on Wednesday. I think it's crucial that she does, because the intervention of another authority figure can do SO much to counteract bigotry learned at home.

@too-old-for-this said in RL Anger:

Given that students rarely get to dictate what happens in class during school hours, I'm going to guess that that isn't, in fact, it. They do not get to exclude his child from any school activity as they lack the authority to do so.

They can just...not play with him, or choose him for teams, or talk to him at lunch/recess, or...on and on and on. Kids absolutely can shun each other and make each other miserable at school.

I have no idea what you're on about, preventing religious discrimination is absolutely a teacher's responsibility and claiming "separation of church and state" as an excuse to allow the discrimination would be enormously shitty and erroneous anyway as @Derp pointed out.

[Tinuviel]

On the one hand, it is absolutely a teacher's role to prevent (in so far as possible) any discrimination.

On the other, the children have the right to decide with whom they associate and for whatever reason they choose.

Not being someone's friend isn't the same as bullying or treating poorly. So conversation should be had, but there's nothing really that a teacher can do.

[silverfox]

If they are playing with their own toys in a corner I generally help the other child who wants to join in to go and find different kids or start up a game with them

If they are using plaything equipment or school toys they 100% cannot exclude anyone, everyone can play.

Additionally if they are letting other kids join but not this one particular kid, then they have to let this kid join also. Deliberate exclusion IS bullying by every accepted school definition.

From what has been said, and knowing there is probably more to it, because there always is, kids are complicated, this is what I would have suggested:

1. Comfort the excluded kid, and make sure they are calm.
2. Ask if they want my help talking to the other kids.
3. Have the other kids come over and have the child explain how they feel (I would sometimes pre-coach on how to say it using I statements)
4. Give the other kids a chance to explain their side one at a time.
5. Review the rules above, and either lay down an edict that the child must be allowed to play if they are using equipment or others are allowed to join, and explain a consequence if I hear this happening again.

[Ganymede]

@wizz

I am from the school of people who believe kids are assholes, but we give them a pass because they are kids.

If a bunch of adults pulled the same shit on me, I’d call them assholes, even if they were parroting the shit their parents believed.

I warn my kids all the time: if I find they are excluding another kid for liking a different TV show or wearing different clothes, there will be severe, life-altering consequences.

One time they asked me why and I told them, simply, that excluding another kid based on what they believe or have is just as life-altering.

[silverfox]

I'm currently scared af of kids ostracizing one another over wearing/not wearing masks.

Things in the general vein of, but not exclusive to:
"My mom said I can't play with you unless you wear a mask."
or
"You look stupid in that mask."

I'm hoping the kids are able to navigate this more successfully than the adults have.

[Derp]

@silverfox

A public health crisis is kind of a different animal from what shoes you're wearing or what church you go to.

A virus isn't a matter of opinion or personal preference. Kids not wearing masks should probably expect that people don't want to be around them as 2000 people a day die of a virus whose spread can help be prevented by simple things like putting a piece of cloth over your blowhole.

[Macha]

As a kid that was openly not Christian - I wasn't bullied about it until high school. Teachers did NOTHING about it, even when said bullying happened IN CLASS, in FRONT of them.

Of course, when I finally had enough and went after the bullying ringleader, picked him out of his chair, threw him on the floor and kicked his ass - the teacher refused to get me in trouble and sent us to the Guidance counselor for 'mediation'.

Some teachers do not know how to control kids in these situations.

[silverfox]

@derp

That isn't the reality that our kids are living with. It seems real simple to us as adults, but kids are shaped strongly by what their parents say and do. To them it IS a matter of opinion, not unlike religion issue we talked above.

I'm not going to sit and tell a kid that their parents are wrong and that they shouldn't believe them.

[Sunny]

@silverfox said in RL Anger:

I'm not going to sit and tell a kid that their parents are wrong and that they shouldn't believe them.

And if you did you'd be disciplined by your employer (most likely), AND the kid isn't going to believe it, anyway.

[Wizz]

@tinuviel said in RL Anger:

Not being someone's friend isn't the same as bullying or treating poorly. So conversation should be had, but there's nothing really that a teacher can do.

I feel like I maybe did not explain the situation well enough. I was pretty upset when I posted it and didn't even get the full story from his teacher until later that day, I apologize. My son did not have three friends individually come up and tell him over the course of the day or whatever, this was something that happened in the classroom all at once. For some reason the subject of religion came up, and when he admitted he did not believe in God, three of his classmates who also happened to have been his friends since the beginning of the school year said they wouldn't be anymore, and other children in the classroom joined in.

Some kids were defending him thankfully, but it was a nightmare, several kids were all telling him at once that they would not be his friend or involve him anymore, and that absolutely is bullying. When he went to the teacher she copped out instead of taking it seriously by saying she couldn't force them to be his friend, which wasn't the issue and she later admitted to me was wrong of her.

Again, as mentioned above, if my son had been  Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or anything else, this would be so cut and dry. But for some reason when the discrimination is against agnostics or atheists many people in the US suck their teeth and hem and haw about stopping it, it's a double standard and it fucking sucks.

Luckily, the teacher did the right thing yesterday and dedicated some class time to talking about accepting others for their differences instead of excluding them, and the kids involved were very open to it and my kid was able to patch things up with them.

I appreciate the input and/or the empathy, peeps. This was quite a trip.

[GreenFlashlight]

@wizz Thanks for the clarification. I admit, after the first post I was mostly on the side of, "Well those kids suck and your kid is better off without them." It is a much bigger deal than I originally thought.

[faraday]

@silverfox said in RL Anger:

Deliberate exclusion IS bullying by every accepted school definition.

Only to a point. As an example defnition: "Social Exclusion is now recognized as a sub group of bullying. This means that idea of excluding someone repeatedly, aggressively and on purpose with the intent to cause emotional harm to them, is right up there with verbal, physical and cyber bullying." (source)

That seems miles away from "if you let one kid join an activity you must let any kid join".

Certainly "you can't play with us because you're (insert protected class here - gender, religion, skin color, etc.)" is problematic. But that's very different from "you can't play with us because last time you kept stealing the ball". Context matters.