MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't)

[Pyrephox]

Sometimes the biggest rewards are non-mechanical. You might be amazed what people are willing to do just for recognition, visibility, or something OOC to collect. Way back in the first iteration of Darkwater, there were two neat things:

1. +votes that did nothing as far as XP, but just sent sent your RP partner a fun/quirky randomized message about awesome RP.

2. Badges. Badges were entirely OOC, much like Ares' achievements, and just granted for doing various things (sometimes helpful, sometimes just goofy).

By and large, players crave a sense that they are seen and that they matter - that they have an impact on this social space of the game. Acquiring XP and getting the 'biggest numbers' is one way to gain that, but it doesn't have to be the only way. A sincere "thank you" or "you make this game a better place to be" is every bit as much a positive reinforcement as XP is for most people.

[faraday]

The overwhelming majority of players will not run plots for others, ever, just as most TTRPG players are not GMs. The fact is that running plots means opening yourself up to a fair bit of stress and drama, and requires a lot of preparation and effort. No matter how grateful you are, or what OOC badges or kudos you offer, that's a high mountain to climb for your pretendy-fun-times.

[Arkandel]

@zombiegenesis Yeah that makes sense.

I think I just meant it in the sense that only rewarding XP (which is the obvious and easier way to incentivize PrP running) isn't necessarily the best way to do it.

It's just that most MU* don't have in-game ways to quantifiably reward... stuff on a regular basis. I suspect they would need to be built from scratch to facilitate that - for example in a L&L game that could be resources (gold, etc), in a comics game perhaps items that temporarily boost a character's power but will deplete if they stop running plot, etc.

[Lotherio]

@faraday said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

The fact is that running plots means opening yourself up to a fair bit of stress and drama,

And potential criticism. That may fall under drama but wanted to be more specific.

[Derp]

@faraday said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

The overwhelming majority of players will not run plots for others, ever, just as most TTRPG players are not GMs. The fact is that running plots means opening yourself up to a fair bit of stress and drama, and requires a lot of preparation and effort. No matter how grateful you are, or what OOC badges or kudos you offer, that's a high mountain to climb for your pretendy-fun-times.

I think that's what was meant above re: 'that is a mentality that needs to change'. And it really does. GMs are not an infinite renewable resource, and are already in short supply. At some point, we're going to have to shift some definitions. For some people, 'collaborative' means that they show up and write poses. But to me, 'collaborative' means that everyone shares in some portion of the work to make the hobby run.

I don't think it's a very high mountain to climb. People need to be willing to do their share to keep the thing moving.

[Arkandel]

@derp I think one of the reasons 'bar RP' is so popular is that some players find solace in how formulaic it is. You don't need to get creative - the only 'expectations' are to reply when it's your turn, describe what your character is doing at the time, maybe what they look like (which you can just have in a @desc or even an image on the wiki) and you're done.

No one can tell you you're doing "I have short dark hair and I'm drinking a beer" wrong.

But the perception of PrPs is that someone could say you're doing it wrong. There's a plot hole, it doesn't make sense! That magic spell doesn't work that way, stupid! This NPC doesn't have the authority the whole premise is built around, ugh! You ran combat but you're not doing initiative right, learn the rules first you noob!

... It doesn't matter whether players scrutinize or get this mean about PrPs (the majority are just happy to have someone run anything...). That's the fear. And it's enough to keep folks from trying it out.

Compared to drinking at a bar? It's not even a contest.

[Derp]

@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

There's a plot hole, it doesn't make sense!

Then there's some other mystery to poke at cleary.

That magic spell doesn't work that way, stupid!

It sure did this time. Find out why.

This NPC doesn't have the authority the whole premise is built around, ugh!

Then you'd better ask him why he's trying to pull off this con. You'd better hope he doesn't have this handed down from someone on high that wants to remain anonymous. That would suck for you.

You ran combat but you're not doing initiative right, learn the rules first you noob!

We're running a streamlined narrative version of the rules that the GM is more comfortable with, and the GM is fully empowered to do so. If you don't like it, we can find a way to k/o your character for this plot.

TL;DR -- there are always criticisms. People are bitchy and pedantic in MUSH and have been for 30+ years. The whining is predictable. The replies are practically canned.

[Sunny]

There are plenty of ways to contribute to running a game that don’t involve running plots, and there’s a substantial number of people that simply do not have the capability. Not everyone is able to DM, not everyone is able to run PRPs, not everyone is able to be creative on demand. Some recognition that it is a thing that not everyone has the capability to do would be wise. If you are a DM/GM/capable of running plot, great. It being easy/possible for you does not make it easy/possible for everyone and there are PLENTY of people I enjoy playing with and spending time with and engaging with in RP that couldn’t plot their way out of a wet paper bag and I would be crushed if they got chased out of the hobby for not contributing enough. Ffs.

“Everyone needs to just step up and run plots” is an unreasonable expectation, full stop.

[Derp]

@sunny said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

Not everyone is able to DM, not everyone is able to run PRPs, not everyone is able to be creative on demand.

Frankly, I disagree. If you can be creative enough to RP a character, you can be creative enough to run an NPC in a plot. Not every plot requires intensive rules. Not every plot even requires rolls. It's just another form of RP. GMs just have more leeway, and a few more tools. It doesn't require any special skills that you don't already use in the normal course of RP.

“Everyone needs to just step up and run plots” is an unreasonable expectation, full stop.

Fortunately, that's not what anyone actually said. You're pushing back against a point that isn't being made.

Even assuming you're right, though, in the idea that not everyone can GM, I find it incredibly unlikely that those who can't are somehow a substantial majority of players. If you could even get 50%, you'd have most things covered, and people could go do other things.

[Devrex]

Folks don't have to run a whole hecking plot, either. More folks just willing to run a one-shot or two would be helpful.

Heck, it would be pretty great if more folks would be willing to come up with creative scene pitches and then start grabbing folks to go get into a one-off situation. Momentum can build off that stuff, scene-by-scene. That takes a lot of the pressure off of 'run plot' but elevates a step above 'So Danny was down at the bar today...'

Creating a one-off doesn't necessarily require people to be paragons of creativity. Just kind of asking yourself what was happening to your character an hour or two before you got there to play them can spark some cool shit. Why is Danny covered in mud and hauling around an Igloo cooler with a weird thumping sound inside? Dunno, but I bet someone would have a fun night figuring it out.

[bear_necessities]

@derp What? There is a big difference between being able to play a character and being able to create a plot that is fun for everyone involved.

[Derp]

@bear_necessities said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@derp What? There is a big difference between being able to play a character and being able to create a plot that is fun for everyone involved.

No, there isn't.

You create a character and a premise for a scene. That's pretty much all it takes. Every MU player does it every single day.

[Arkandel]

@derp Not quite. Everyone can respond to a scene. Some people are even quite good at feeding off of existing cues, writing really good poses, being fun to be around... but they can't (or won't) create new plot threads.

To some people "hey this scene is getting stale, I'll make a drunk NPC start a fight" comes naturally. Others don't want to deal with being in the spotlight for that.

[ZombieGenesis]

@sunny said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

“Everyone needs to just step up and run plots” is an unreasonable expectation, full stop.

I think you're raging against a point that was never made. I don't think anyone is suggesting everyone should do anything. And I certainly don't think anyone is saying we should chase away players who won't run plots.

I think the point is, at least from where I see things, is that there are people who will sit in an OOC room and complain about not having anything to do when, in fact, they may very well be empowered to go out and do whatever they want. I think we're trying to get to the bottom of why they don't and how can we, as game runners, help entice and encourage them to do so.

I think the word "plot" might be being blown out of proportion too. A plot doesn't have to be a grand adventure. It could just be, "Hey, let's go beat up some monsters down by the ocean front" and having someone willing to emit those monsters. Or, as a collaborative effort, a few people emitting monsters.

I think you'll also find people are more capable than they think. On a private game I run right now most of the players have never played on any other MUSH before. They're total MU newbies for the most part. They asked me what they could do on the game and I told them, "whatever you want". They actually came up with an actual big old plot that they're working their way through. It may not always be pretty but they're having fun and that's the point. Just having fun.

I think this mentality exists IRL as well. One of the women in my tabletop group really wanted to try and run an adventure for D&D but didn't think she could. She was terrified but decided to give it a try and we all had a blast. Sometimes it just takes a little confidence.

And gaming with the right people. If you run something and people bitch and whine about it? Those aren't the type of people you should probably be gaming with.

Gaming partners should raise each other up.

With all that said, there will still be people who aren't capable or just don't want to run plots. That's fine. But should that stop us from trying to find ways to entice and encourage those who can or those who may be on the fence about trying but are unsure?

[Devrex]

There was a cool Bingo game that one of the players (Maia, I think) on The Network came up with, where they rando-generated a bingo card for players with prompts like uh..."I Thought You Brought It," and "Is This Real or Is It a Simulation" and "The Book Was Wrong" and a bunch of other tropes. People rando-generated cards and put them on their profiles and tried to get a bingo.

This seemed to encourage folks to come up with wild and crazy and fun things to do for and with each other just to make those tropes happen, and everyone had lots of fun with it. Stuff like that can help. I just remembered it just now!

[BetterNow]

@faraday said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

The overwhelming majority of players will not run plots for others, ever, just as most TTRPG players are not GMs. The fact is that running plots means opening yourself up to a fair bit of stress and drama, and requires a lot of preparation and effort. No matter how grateful you are, or what OOC badges or kudos you offer, that's a high mountain to climb for your pretendy-fun-times.

And to be fair, most of us are now stuck #adulting and our freetime to create and run plots is next to nil. It's not all people being stingy or unwilling. Sometimes it's just life. We all grew up, and with that came responsibilities that really put a kink in the RP stuff, and drain the hell out of our creativity and energy. We just want to log in and play, not be responsible for yet another thing.

[ZombieGenesis]

@betternow I think you've just brought the conversation around full circle. The points you made were the very foundation of what we were talking about. We're all busy, we all have lives, we all have other hobbies, we all have other things we do, but we all still want RP and to have fun MUSHing.

The answer can't be, "let other people entertain me". That's the road that leads to stagnation and RP death. I think we're collectively trying to find ways to inspire people to find way to entertain each other. Even if it's just for a few hours.

[Arkandel]

@zombiegenesis said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

The answer can't be, "let other people entertain me". That's the road that leads to stagnation and RP death. I think we're collectively trying to find ways to inspire people to find way to entertain each other. Even if it's just for a few hours.

That's true. But I think it's also not "let's all do something that doesn't come naturally to some". It won't work, either.

I think the answer is in automated unscripted PrPs to bridge some gaps. I doubt though there is a singular 'silver bullet' approach that will just solve this problem.

[ZombieGenesis]

@arkandel I agree with you on all points except one; the 'let's all' part. I can't speak for everyone but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find ways to encourage those who can and those who may want to try. Part of that is finding the right incentive system that doesn't ostracize those who can't or don't want to.

I really like the idea of automated prompts. Even something as simple as using an online writing prompt generator could be interesting.

[Arkandel]

@zombiegenesis Yeah, that's fair. Maybe an 8-ball kind of code which, if at least half the scene's participants silently activate, spits out a random encounter in the room.