RL Anger

[Derp]

@Wizz said:

I am going to 100% guarantee you that no one has thrown a bottle at your head or screamed a racial slur at you for just trying to buy groceries. Or just for walking down the street. No one has denied you fucking housing, or told you or your partner to leave a public area because you held hands.

I think my partner, Will, would disagree with you. Racial slurs, no, I'll grant you that much, but race isn't the only category that happens in. But sure, let's turn that into a race war, instead of shitty humans being shitty.

The whole thrust of your argument is "Affirmative Action is bad!" Yeah, maybe. It's a gray area. You had to struggle a little harder to get into school? Aww man.

And if I were a black person being denied scholarships based on the color of my skin? Would that be outrage-worthy? If we're going to talk equality instead of revenge, then at what point do we actually step up and start saying that it shouldn't happen to anyone?

EDIT: This originally ended with an insult and that's not appropriate. I am really sorry.

S'cool. I'm pretty thick skinned. I fall into at least one minority group that's taken a lot of fire, and I have some quesionable political views of my own. I'm used to things getting heated.

[Wizz]

@Derp said:

@Wizz said:

I am going to 100% guarantee you that no one has thrown a bottle at your head or screamed a racial slur at you for just trying to buy groceries. Or just for walking down the street. No one has denied you fucking housing, or told you or your partner to leave a public area because you held hands.

I think my partner, Will, would disagree with you. Racial slurs, no, I'll grant you that much, but race isn't the only category that happens in. But sure, let's turn that into a race war, instead of shitty humans being shitty.

Genuinely my bad for assuming. But you're absolutely right, it's not the only category, and you then have the experience to know that. That's what we're talking about here, is that being white and a dude means that you are shielded from so much bullshit. It's crazy to not admit to it, for real

@Derp said:

The whole thrust of your argument is "Affirmative Action is bad!" Yeah, maybe. It's a gray area. You had to struggle a little harder to get into school? Aww man.

And if I were a black person being denied scholarships based on the color of my skin? Would that be outrage-worthy? If we're going to talk equality instead of revenge, then at what point do we actually step up and start saying that it shouldn't happen to anyone?

You weren't "denied" a scholarship for being white, you didn't qualify for the scholarships that exist. That maybe sounds pedantic, but it's an important difference, because (in part) Affirmative Action was a response to systematic denial of service, extreme cultural inequity. And again, I'm not saying that in some senses Affirmative Action has not been taken to an extreme in some interpretations, or that it's some sort of permanent solution to the problem. You're not arguing with anyone here, so far anyway.

[Arkandel]

@Cirno said:

@DnvnQuinn

Ha! That'll teach Arkandel. He was pretending to disbelieve that I am comely and good looking.

Hrm? I said no such thing.

I said I don't care what color or gender you are, and I still don't. What possible difference does that make?

[Derp]

@Wizz said:

@Derp said:

@Wizz said:

I am going to 100% guarantee you that no one has thrown a bottle at your head or screamed a racial slur at you for just trying to buy groceries. Or just for walking down the street. No one has denied you fucking housing, or told you or your partner to leave a public area because you held hands.

I think my partner, Will, would disagree with you. Racial slurs, no, I'll grant you that much, but race isn't the only category that happens in. But sure, let's turn that into a race war, instead of shitty humans being shitty.

Genuinely my bad for assuming. But you're absolutely right, it's not the only category, and you then have the experience to know that. That's what we're talking about here, is that being white and a dude means that you are shielded from so much bullshit. It's crazy to not admit to it, for real

@Derp said:

The whole thrust of your argument is "Affirmative Action is bad!" Yeah, maybe. It's a gray area. You had to struggle a little harder to get into school? Aww man.

And if I were a black person being denied scholarships based on the color of my skin? Would that be outrage-worthy? If we're going to talk equality instead of revenge, then at what point do we actually step up and start saying that it shouldn't happen to anyone?

You weren't "denied" a scholarship for being white, you didn't qualify for the scholarships that exist. That maybe sounds pedantic, but it's an important difference, because (in part) Affirmative Action was a response to systematic denial of service, extreme cultural inequity. And again, I'm not saying that in some senses Affirmative Action has been taken to an extreme in some interpretations, or that it's some sort of permanent solution to the problem. You're not arguing with anyone here, so far anyway.

But you're arguing both sides of it here, which is a relatively common thing in these circles. You can't say 'you don't qualify for X thing based on your race and that's okay' by backing it up with 'being white shields you from so much other bullshit that it just balances'. The same could be said for the other side, in that there are inherent advantages to the color of your skin and things that white people have to deal with that people of other races are legally shielded from.

And that's why this argument bugs the hell out of me. Everyone just assumes that it only goes one way, when it doesn't. It's just that one side isn't allowed to talk about the hardships that they endure based on it because people from our distant past made some bad calls, and now we're forced to live with the stigma of it because society won't tolerate any deviance from the mea culpa routine. We inherited a cross to bear, and any sign of wanting to shrug that off is simply not tolerated, and words like 'racist' get thrown around before anyone even asks 'why?'

We're not equal to each other, sure. I can get behind that. But one side is not universally more disadvantaged than another, either. We're unequal in different ways. In that sense, I guess we are sort-of equal in the sense that we each get handed some bullshit in areas we shouldn't be handed bullshit in, but until the bar is set at a position where everyone can reach it at the same damn level across the board, granting more special stuff to one side is ludicrous, and pretending that whitey has his boot on everyone's neck is shortsighted to the point of lunacy.

(FWIW, this is the same reason that I disagree with Obergefell. Yes, let's create another class of citizens to grant special legal statuses to rather than just saying something as simple as 'marriage as a legal institution makes no sense, so we're going to simply say that any two adults who wish to enter a domestic partnership can, under simple contract law, and leave this term 'marriage' to mean whatever people want it to mean for them'. Because insulating one group never breeds hostility or causes problems, and there's no way we'll be facing any future backlash from that. Right?)

[deadculture]

@Cirno said:

I am just gonna leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQbkYhQ5OKk

Two can play this game.

[Groth]

The problem here is that there are certain things which are statistically true which will not be true for independent cases. The average white male is more privileged then the average of most other social groups, this is a well supported fact. This does not mean that every white male is more privileged then all other social groups, it's trivial to find counter-examples.

Whenever you find yourself arguing of the form 'Every X is Y' then you should really stop yourself right there and backtrack, because you're going to be wrong and you're going to be wrong in a way that undermines what you're trying to put forth.

[Cirno]

@deadculture said:

@Cirno said:

I am just gonna leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQbkYhQ5OKk

Two can play this game.

Not impressed. Black people kill each other on the regular.

Shit, they form gangs just to kill each other. Your video doesn't mean a thing and proves nothing.

Do you also care about all the young black kids that get shot by black gangbangers? No? I thought so.

[Cirno]

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno said:

@DnvnQuinn

Ha! That'll teach Arkandel. He was pretending to disbelieve that I am comely and good looking.

Hrm? I said no such thing.

I said I don't care what color or gender you are, and I still don't. What possible difference does that make?

No, I was talking about the other thread where you told me how I was making shit up, how I was trolling, and how I am certainly not attractive enough to draw attention from people or be leched on by white women.

Now we all know better. If you're still unconvinced, feel free to visit; I'll show you the sights, and you can see for yourself at how many white women perv on me.

You could always brush it away by saying that they are the sorts that wear pants with "PINK" and other stuff written on the butt-cheeks, though.

[Wizz]

@Derp said:

You can't say 'you don't qualify for X thing based on your race and that's okay' by backing it up with 'being white shields you from so much other bullshit that it just balances'. The same could be said for the other side, in that there are inherent advantages to the color of your skin and things that white people have to deal with that people of other races are legally shielded from.

Derp, I'm not saying that your struggle to go to college is justified, by anything. For the 3rd time man I am not saying Affirmative Action is awesome, parts of the reasoning behind it are flawed and many institutions do kind of shitty things with it. Yes, we are all agreed.

But in the context of your entire life how difficult it is to get into college is really pretty fucking small potatoes compared to the quality of the remaining 60+ (or whatever) years of life you will have where you don't have to deal with pervasive racism and sexism because you were born with a penis and you're pale. Just saying. It's not even a contest, there IS a universal disadvantage there.

[Arkandel]

@Cirno said:

No, I was talking about the other thread where you told me how I was making shit up, how I was trolling, and how I am certainly not attractive enough to draw attention from people or be leched on by white women.

Would you quote me the post where I said all of those things, please?

[Cirno]

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno said:

No, I was talking about the other thread where you told me how I was making shit up, how I was trolling, and how I am certainly not attractive enough to draw attention from people or be leched on by white women.

Would you quote me the post where I said all of those things, please?

It would be my pleasure, kind sir.

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno said:

A.) When you command someone to have sex with you, they will do it.
...
I am actually slightly dismayed by how much people are attracted to me.
...
Like, a few months ago I was picking up some prescriptions for my hypertension and while I was waiting in line, this thirty something, red-haired white woman in tight exercise clothes started talking to me about stuff, and then she started rubbing my bicep muscles and my belly.

I can't tell if you are trolling and to what extent! That is tremendously well done, bravo.

[Groth]

@Wizz said:

But in the context of your entire life how difficult it is to get into college is really pretty fucking small potatoes compared to the quality of the remaining 60+ (or whatever) years of life you will have where you don't have to deal with pervasive racism and sexism because you were born with a penis and you're pale. Just saying. It's not even a contest, there IS a universal disadvantage there.

That's just not true. Just like everyone else Derp will face both sexism and racism, it just takes different forms and is on average more beneficial.

[Arkandel]

@Cirno And you think

| I can't tell if you are trolling and to what extent! That is tremendously well done, bravo.

means

| I was making shit up, how I was trolling, and how I am certainly not attractive enough to draw attention from people or be leched on by white women.

?

I stand by my statement though, I can't tell if you are trolling. For your sake I hope you are but either way it doesn't matter to me.

[Cirno]

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno And you think

| I can't tell if you are trolling and to what extent! That is tremendously well done, bravo.

means

| I was making shit up, how I was trolling, and how I am certainly not attractive enough to draw attention from people or be leched on by white women.

?

I stand by my statement though, I can't tell if you are trolling. For your sake I hope you are but either way it doesn't matter to me.

Yeah, like how I was pretending to be black to troll people, am I right?

You'd think people would have learned their lesson by now, but noooooooo.

[Lithium]

Ah the good old days when the soapbox reminds me that it's not forgotten it's WORA roots.

Seriously:

People are fucked up to other people. Period. They don't /need/ an excuse, they just /find/ one.

Humanity is screwed up. Society is screwed up. There will never be true equality because 'people' as a whole don't /want/ equality. They /want/ to be /better/ than others, they want to have more, they think they deserve more.

Racism works both ways. Racial slurs exist on both sides, and I /have/ been called them by black individuals in the past. I've experienced violence, because of this us vs them mentality that is fostered so often. (I'm actually a mutt, mix of european of a variety of types along with Blackfoot and Sioux tribes enough to claim it) Yes, sexism is a thing as well but honestly...

/EVERYONE/ has to be willing to move past it and look to the future or it'll just continue.

P.S. There's plenty of white on white violence also that doesn't necessarily make the news either. Personally I'm of the opinion this social experiment isn't working and we should just stop /all/ the hate, /all/ the judgement, because we /all/ experience it anymore. That doesn't make any part of it right or better.

[Cirno]

@Lithium

This isn't Disney world. What you are describing is totally unworkable.

Oh, and, by the way, not only is "both sides do it" untrue, it's a logical fallacy.

[Wizz]

@Groth said:

That's just not true. Just like everyone else Derp will face both sexism and racism, it just takes different forms and is on average more beneficial.

Read: pervasive racism and sexism. If you really want to drag this down to semantics, fine, whatever, yes, he will encounter fleeting moments of "racism and sexism" by one of the literal definition of those terms outside of the context of this discussion.

@Lithium said:

Racism works both ways. Racial slurs exist on both sides, and I /have/ been called them by black individuals in the past. I've experienced violence, because of this us vs them mentality that is fostered so often.

And yes, there will be a finite number of times in his life where he will experience real hostility or negative bias. There is still just no comparison to the kind of life typical to a person who doesn't check two arbitrary boxes.

[Insomnia]

My car battery keeps getting drained by all the fiddly little electronics that come with cars nowadays and I may have to buy a new one. So I have to take my car out for a drive around every day to keep the charge.

And I've been off work since mid October.

I'm grateful I have a car that I can use if I need it, but I don't have the money to keep it running to use it if I need it.

[Cirno]

@Lithium , everyone else

Let me tell you why 'both sides do it' is bullshit.

White man: A black dude stared at me and called me cracker! Affirmative action! BOTH SIDES DO IT! REEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Now consider the following (trigger warning, graphic) . These are things that actually happened.

[MOD VOICE: Removed images of people being hanged. Could have been links. - Thenomain]

Have black people done this to white people? Have they done this on a large scale?

No?

Well, then, "both sides do it" is Fucking. Bullshit.

[Lithium]

Then I guess you just are flat out IGNORING what happens in certain african countries, because of the shape of people's noses. I am sure you are ignoring the times when yes, people are attacked and killed, because of NOT being black, or mexican, or south american, or not having the right religion, or not agreeing in the same VERSION of marriage?

You're right, just because you can link pictures of HORRIBLE stuff people have done to black people, means that black people have NEVER done HORRIBLE stuff to others because they weren't black.

I've seen what happens and experienced violence myself. I may not be dead and hung, or burned because clearly I am still here, but there are PLENTY of violence on BOTH SIDES.

EDIT: But hey, that's a complete fallacy, never happens, totally untrue.

Guess what, institutionalized slavery? Not a thing currently going on here. Bad shit happened, nobody is denying that. Bad shit STILL happens. But apparently it only counts when it happens to black people.

And this is why it will never end.

Edit 2:

And because I have no desire to try and outshock anyone, I'm not going to link what happened to /my/ ancestors.