I would also add to the take away that it can be done but is a lot of work.
My issue is not with wanted to create the L+L game that is not a marriage simulator, but the idea that all the folks are just waiting to be shown something else and then will follow along without question.
To be this strikes me as Bane level arrogance of of course once hey see my idea they will ignore what they have previously liked.
The chance is possible but it will not be easy and if you do not have the mind set of this will be a lot of work it will not happen.
@ThatGuyThere I fundamentally disagree with you over whether L & L games are about the marriage simulators; I think it's about pseudo-feudalistic worlds, whether far-future or far-past or whatever. I think what attracts the players is less about the marriage simulators than the settings. Which is not to say some players dont love matching up and playing the romance stories, but that's not the whole game or even the selling point. Its the default fallback option.
Do you meant the fantasy of aristocratic privilege?
@Misadventure said:
Do you meant the fantasy of aristocratic privilege?
Sure. Undeniably a part of it. Though plenty of players will play characters that aren't noble, too, in these sort of games, usually those'll be alts.
Agreed. I've been in games where Nobles were the highly restricted 'group', and you basically had to play/ be around for a very long time before you got one, or had even the option of a lower ranked noble. And it was NOT a fun game, because all the 'Common' NPCs were put int this villiage and didn't interact with noblity. But you'd see like 30 + people on, and couldn't interact with them.
You were Jane Farmer, and they were Lord Smith of the Cerulean Knights, and it was a strange game.
I finally got a noble, and found out that sadly the political 'plots' were less intersting because it was like 6 characters with ALL the power.
For a Space Lords and LAdies game, make it like Dune, all the characters have a 1-3 unique things (depending on the where the story is):
Paul is the Kaerdich Haderach(WTF WORD!), Rules breaker.
Lady Jessica : has Fate Aspects of : I do it for Love, I do it for my Order, Rules breaker & What have I unleashed?
(I mean the list goes on.)
My current plan is for there to be a 'skill pyramid' in character generation, plus added on points atop of that. This would be pitched so that every character is by base amazing at something, really good at a bunch of things, and competent at most things yet mediocre at others. Extra points on top of that could be used for being literally the best at your 'Thing', rounding out to lack weaknesses, or being a Space Count, etc.
Not being a Space Noble would probably be some kind of disadvantage you would choose and then get more points for, while genetically engineered Space Nobles are on average super competent there are billions of none Space Nobles and a player character would be one of the absolute most capable of them.
The idea being that a none noble would not be Jane Farmer, they are more likely to be Space Joan of Arc. On which note I really do recommend reading the transcripts of her trial - this was a teenaged girl who had been captured, quite likely tortured, then was being raked over the metaphorical coals by a bunch of religious lawyers to try to trick her into logical and dogmatic traps and she was basically too savvy for them.
And pfff, I totally played an awesome vassal to Antonio. Sofia thought he was great, but kind of scandalous.
@Packrat Your idea needs some polishing. Particularly in regards to where you want to go, the kind of theme you have in mind, what are the 'features' of said theme, what kind of literature you're inspiring yourself with and so on. You want to make a lords and ladies game... without the medieval parts.
I'd just go for a sci-fi game with a variety of different post monarchy governments, like corporations, maybe.
Or maybe Freelancer: the MUSH.
@ThatGuyThere said:
My issue is not with wanted to create the L+L game that is not a marriage simulator, but the idea that all the folks are just waiting to be shown something else and then will follow along without question.
To be this strikes me as Bane level arrogance of of course once hey see my idea they will ignore what they have previously liked.
The chance is possible but it will not be easy and if you do not have the mind set of this will be a lot of work it will not happen.
Its not about anyone being shown the light, or anyone here suggesting that anything would be innovative (which was Bane's thing).
It's about this being basic, observable fact on any and every MU since basically the dawn of MUtime. Games with conflict-driven themes, staff run plots, etc have more of those things. Games that basically say 'hey this is a sandbox, you can PRP anything you want' have people sandboxing in private. I'm not sure how a person can even argue about this, its so fucking base level fundamental.
Sounds like generic FATE stuff, which I admit gets me the opposite of excited.
@bored
And sandbox games out number plot intensive games in the modern market. There is a reason for that, well more then one most likely. Though one that I think people over look is maybe a majority of players prefer it that way.
@lordbelh
I believe the folks playing decide what the game is about. true you can do many things in the lords and ladies settings. As I stated earlier mine would be adventuring using the setting as a back drop. Essentially John Carter the MUSH, but that is not what L+L mushes are about. Everyone I have seen in the past decade has been roughly 70 percent marriage simulator/ who is banging who sorts of things, around 25 percent politics / empire building and the remaining 5 percent adventure-y stuff.
Does it have to be? No not at all but until one is made I will continue to say that is what they are about.
Has it always been this way? Again no, but the purposed game would be made today not then.
@ThatGuyThere said:
John Carter the MUSH
Yes please. I've been re-reading The Martian Chronicles, and finally purchased the last two I didn't have (Thuvia, Maid of Mars and The Master Mind of Mars) after 20ish years. I so very much want to play on a John Carter game (books, not movies).
@ThatGuyThere said:
@bored
And sandbox games out number plot intensive games in the modern market. There is a reason for that, well more then one most likely. Though one that I think people over look is maybe a majority of players prefer it that way.
Eh, correlation != causation, and assuming staffers across the hobby are reacting to... uh, some kind of market research and adjusting their games to match is hilariously far-fetched.
PRP-only games also require next to zero staff work, so there's that.
@bored
Not saying Staffers do market research but regardless of the ability of staff to do less work if people did not enjoy PrP based games they would not play on them.
Market forces exist whether people are paying attention to them or not.
And no correlation does not necessarily equal causation but it is generally seen to imply a connection.
RfK worked and got people involved mainly through the work of Shava not just the systems and staff work but also in paging people to bring plots that would fit their character to their attention. She would introduce people on channel and by page whose characters would play well off each other things like that. I am not saying it cannot be done but it takes a shit ton of work from dedicated people. Who do you propose would be the Shava of this game? You volunteering for that role?
Not to be insulting but if his behavior on the channels on SC is inductive of his personality Appolonius is not particularly suited for it.
RfK did a lot of things right, but it was run by someone who really attempted to run the game as a GM would a table top and it was wonderful, it also grew way too damn big to survive on that model. Unless you have someone like Shava willing to dedicate themselves to the game I don't think it is a viable model to follow.
tl-dr summary It takes personal interaction not systems to change the culture, find the person to do that and you will have a chance of changing the culture. Without that person you really do not.
RfK basically used systems and ideas that were implemented by a previous and much older game: LA: A House Divided. Finite blood resources, grid fiefs. I'd say LA's scale to that was much greater, from what I knew of the game.
Its only issue was being consent-based.
This may be my bitch-fu speaking but in the last 6 months in particular there are a whole /hell/ of a lot of players playing on games that they never stop bitching about on chan, privately, here, whatever--all the while saying there's no where else to play. 
@mietze said:
This may be my bitch-fu speaking but in the last 6 months in particular there are a whole /hell/ of a lot of players playing on games that they never stop bitching about on chan, privately, here, whatever--all the while saying there's no where else to play.
Bitching is easy but making games is hard.
@deadculture I remember LA :A House Divided, its was interesting, though I still think RfK did it better.
@ThatGuyThere said:
RfK worked and got people involved mainly through the work of Shava not just the systems and staff work but also in paging people to bring plots that would fit their character to their attention. She would introduce people on channel and by page whose characters would play well off each other things like that. I am not saying it cannot be done but it takes a shit ton of work from dedicated people. Who do you propose would be the Shava of this game? You volunteering for that role?
Didn't play on RfK, no idea who Shava is. That said, you're basically suggesting what I've been saying repeatedly: that you need staffers who do things. True!
Who am I suggesting do it? Uh, whatever staff @Packrat hires. That's why he'd hire them, right? Would I do it? I dunno. I might offer help on an FS game, dunno about unique theme. But the point is you don't need one magic wizard, you need a staff in general that is willing to put in the work.
That may well be rarer these days due to the demographic issues of the MUing population (which is far more likely a factor in any grand changes you think you've seen). But it doesn't change that basic requirement. You want anything other than a sandbox, regardless of the genre, you need a vision and active staff to push it.
@bored said:
PRP-only games also require next to zero staff work, so there's that.
Not so true as I'm sure a lot of people wish it was. This isn't actually the case at all.
@ThatGuyThere said:
Not to be insulting but if his behavior on the channels on SC is inductive of his personality Appolonius is not particularly suited for it.
I am doing what now where and how?
@Packrat Your idea needs some polishing. Particularly in regards to where you want to go, the kind of theme you have in mind, what are the 'features' of said theme, what kind of literature you're inspiring yourself with and so on. You want to make a lords and ladies game... without the medieval parts.
I'd just go for a sci-fi game with a variety of different post monarchy governments, like corporations, maybe.
Or maybe Freelancer: the MUSH.
