RL Anger

[Kanye Qwest]

Also, you are all missing the point. This isn't a guy who just showed up like "Hey I remembered how cool you were and looked you up, let's hang out!"

That's so far from what Mietze described it's not even relevant.

If a guy randomly tried to book you to show off a Kirby vacuum at his apartment and then, when you canceled, showed up and only THEN admitted he'd been in love with you and your perfect white skin since high school and stalked you and tried to trick you into meeting him without admitting the prior acquaintance first, THEN your reaction to him showing up would be relevant.

It's got nothing to do with 'being able to take care of yourself' and everything to do with "creepy people are creepy and, more importantly, unpredictable". Can't nobody 'take care of themselves' your way out of chloroform or a slow campaign of terror in which a totally nice person who doesn't understand why you won't take their love systematically turns your life into a nightmare.

[Arkandel]

@Coin said in RL Anger:

I have lived in some iffy neighborhoods and I have, though. I'm keenly aware I am not John McClane, man. I know that if someone comes at me from a dark corner my chances of surviving, let alone getting away unscather, are low. It's true that men are taught to be tough, but the real lesson they're taught is to believe they are tough. But we're not. Not really. Not in general. And I say this as someone who has gotten into his fair share of fights and can hold his own in a fist-fight. It doesn't matter. Once the piper or whatever hits you in the head, you're probably fucked, and that can happen to anyone.

Yeah, that's why I made the disclaimer about thinking you can take care of yourself. It has the same effect on whether you (the generic 'you', obviously you feel differently about it) are concerned about your physical safety under normal circumstances or not, even if it's unwarranted.

[somasatori]

@mietze said in RL Anger:

Maybe guys would feel scared in that way though, dunno.

The first year I was married (so about 9 years ago), someone I knew from my early college years figured out where I was and contacted me. Without getting into heavy detail about my life back then or anything, she caused a lot of problems and wound up showing up on our doorstep through the traditional methods of stalking before the Facebook era. She even made an overture that I had to choose my late wife over her. I was more angry than scared, and it all started because my job at the time kept an employee listing with employee pictures on their website.

[Derp]

@Coin said in RL Anger:

Did he show up specifically to find you?

Yes, actually. I had where I worked on Facebook. He went to Facebook, saw that, and showed up. Specifically to find me.

@Kanye-Qwest said:

If a guy randomly tried to book you to show off a Kirby vacuum at his apartment and then, when you canceled, showed up and only THEN admitted he'd been in love with you and your perfect white skin since high school and stalked you and tried to trick you into meeting him without admitting the prior acquaintance first, THEN your reaction to him showing up would be relevant.

Yes, well, forgive me if my first reaction to your statement isn't 'oh, of course, it's so obvious now! How did I not see Kanye's point all along', given your rather pronounced tendency to take anything that's even a bit off and turn it into something extremely inflammatory. At the end of the day, as much as I sympathize with @Mietze's point, it's still only one side of the story, and is skewed by her perception of events as somewhat creepy/off. (NOTE: I am -not- calling Mietze a liar, or saying she is wrong -- just that it is only one side of the story, there, and there exists a -possibility- that the intentions are more innocent than they may appear. I fully understand her hesitation in this matter.)

Sure, it's a bit suspicious, but as has been noted elsewhere, it's not necessarily serial-killer level suspicious, either. As has been noted, lots of people are trained to believe that this is a fairly straightforward gesture from many media sources. Rather than sending an e-mail to a person who might be a complete stranger, the other person set up a meeting with a person in a place that the person being met has a great deal of control -- their place of work, which is in theory a public place where they are surrounded by other people, rather than asking to, say, meet in a restaurant or something, or worse, a bar. Misguided, sure, but not necessarily sinister.

There are people to this day that I think of from high school and occasionally look up. But I also work in a university town that's fairly small for what it is, so it's not exactly hard to find someone, especially if they're still around. It's as easy as asking a friend about them.

So, as noted, while Mietze is perfectly justified in her suspicion and actions, there is potentially another side of the story, here. One in which the man is not The Devil. And I was merely trying to make the point that, sometimes, people can show up and want to get in touch with no moustache-twirling involved.

[Arkandel]

@Derp said in RL Anger:

Yes, well, forgive me if my first reaction to your statement isn't 'oh, of course, it's so obvious now! How did I not see Kanye's point all along', given your rather pronounced tendency to take anything that's even a bit off and turn it into something extremely inflammatory. At the end of the day, as much as I sympathize with @Mietze's point, it's still only one side of the story, and is skewed by her perception of events as somewhat creepy/off. (NOTE: I am -not- calling Mietze a liar, or saying she is wrong -- just that it is only one side of the story, there, and there exists a -possibility- that the intentions are more innocent than they may appear. I fully understand her hesitation in this matter.)

Although Kanye will be Kanye, it's not really a side-of-the-story matter here.

What the guy did was objectively creepy even if he has only the best intentions in mind, thought it'd be a fun reunion, would never hurt a fly, and would back off the first time he got even a hint she's uncomfortable by this.

[Kanye Qwest]

Is what the guy is or is not relevant? If Mietze doesn't want the attention, and doesn't want to talk to him/catch up/entertain his attention at all, that's her choice.

She doesn't even need a reason. She has them, but she doesn't need them. If someone doesn't want to talk with you or interact with you on a personal level, you 'not being the devil' doesn't mean they should, anyway.

[mietze]

God, @Derp.

[Derp]

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

What the guy did was objectively creepy even if he has only the best intentions in mind

We have not, to my knowledge, ever developed a universal consensus on what constitutes creepy or not creepy in social scenarios, so this is false. It's subjectively creepy. And like all things subjective, it's by definition open to interpretation, though I concede that there may be multiple equally valid interpretations. I even said so above, when I said that I understand @mietze's hesitation.

@Kanye-Qwest

s what the guy is or is not relevant? If Mietze doesn't want the attention, and doesn't want to talk to him/catch up/entertain his attention at all, that's her choice.

She doesn't even need a reason. She has them, but she doesn't need them. If someone doesn't want to talk with you or interact with you on a personal level, you 'not being the devil' doesn't mean they should, anyway.

Shockingly, I disagree with this sentiment, as a great many do.

While it's cool ultra-liberal ideology and catchy in that way, I don't buy it in the least. Sometimes, you have to interact with other people. Even, gasp, people who you might not necessarily want to interact with. That's all part of the glorious world of being a grownup, who lives in a community populated by other grownups that depend on each other, on some level, for their everyday social/intellectual/occasionally physical needs.

Sure, you can say it all you want to, but that doesn't make it true. The bully from high school is now the local auto repair guy. I think he's a dick. I still go there when my car needs fixing. I see him at local softball games, because our nieces are in the same league. The ex girlfriend? Now works for the county clerk. I go there and talk to her, because that's what I have to do for some of my work things. I will even interact with people that I personally despise on a fundamental level when in public, often even in private, because that's just how we roll around these here parts.

And you know what? I belong to a thriving, healthy community that is rated as one of the most forward-thinking and tolerant places in the country. We know each other. We befriend each other. Sometimes, we even fight, or get vibes from one another. But we also give each other a chance, and the benefit of the doubt.

So maybe I'm living in some weird utopian fantasy (I wouldn't go that far by a long way) but sentiments like this one make me want to smack people. Adulting is hard, and comes with lots of things that maybe we don't want to deal with, but have to anyway. Surprise. Social interactions are no different in that regard.

But you know what, you do you. That's cool. I even said that I think @Mietze is justified, and will say it again, just so it's officially on the damn record. I just don't think it's the path I personally would have chosen, because I have different beliefs than another person. I believe that that is also allowed under ultra-liberal ideology, no?

[mietze]

Maybe it makes it more believable this is a creepy situation that my therapist/psychologist suitemate had her alarm bells triggered interacting with this guy without knowing the background? Though she is a woman. So probably just as incompetent as me at assessing threat levels.

Anyway. Wanna know why these situations are so stressful and why a lot of women don't trust their gut or feel like then should? Why reactions just like @Derp's. Hey he was nice and said he wasn't accessing me of /lying/ at least.

Most people who commit workplace violence or even rape actually are not perceived as "bad dudes" either. Many women are reluctant to tell men when attention is unwelcome or inappropriate because how dare they even consider making a guy rhink he's acting like a creep because what if he's "really not?" Be a good girl and enjoy the attention and him a chance.

It's just so important tha people who violate boundaries of behavior are given chances and the people who have to deal with them should just be careful to not make those folks feel bad.

[Kanye Qwest]

Seriously, @mietze, you need to lighten up and learn to take a compliment. Maybe if you ask nicely (or just state your own perspective) Derp will tell you how should react to things.

God knows you probably need all the help you can get.

[Vorpal]

Kanye, I think it would help the conversation if you didn't jump onto the hyperbole mobile and drive it off a cliff shouting "Yippie kay-yay." Especially when you're putting words in someone's mouth that are not what they said.

There's a gulf between someone saying" it's not creepy" and them saying "she totally needs to learn how to accept a compliment", and you're pole-vaulting across it with the joyful abandon of a ballerina on speed here.

[mietze]

Also, what part of my reaction isn't part of the real world of adulting? I've owned my own practice for 3 years, asshole. During that time, I know personally 3 practioner a who have been assaulted/robbed. There are every few years serial rapists who target massage therapists because of the evening/weekend hours. It is why while we are considered medical practioners in my state solo practioners in particular are encouraged to have some way to screen first time clients and we retain more right refusal. I can (and have) kicked someone's ass out of my business mid-session because of their boundary violating behavior (they kept trying to brush against my thighs even after I told them to stop--but you know maybe after multiple times it was accidental, I hope they didn't think I was saying they're a bad guy)

If you called a mechanic, and asked them for an appointment for a tune up, and they said they were not able to take you as a client at the time, would you think it appropriate to drive over anyway a few weeks later and poke around asking what a specific mechanic was up to and trying to enter the business beyond opening hours to see if you could meet up with them? I don't think most bad or good guys would really think that was normal, or not odd and weird.

I guess I don't adult well though.

[Kanye Qwest]

The conversation was fine until @derp jumped in and started mansplaining about..how to adult? I don't even know. Because he is a moron, I am taunting him. A, because it's fun for me. B, because who knows? Maybe someday he will 'listen' to himself with a critical 'ear' and have an epiphany.

Doubtful, but hey - there are two sides to every story. Now, if @mietze asked me to stfu about it, I would! It's not a joke, for all that I'm having some fun with the dumb.

It's fucked up and disconcerting when people spring pressure-heavy situations and discussion on you, and doubly so when you don't know them and they are doing so dishonestly. And then when you complain about it, you get the joy of having adult responsibilities explained to you by a moron.

It's hard out here for a bitch.

[Arkandel]

@Derp said in RL Anger:

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

What the guy did was objectively creepy even if he has only the best intentions in mind

We have not, to my knowledge, ever developed a universal consensus on what constitutes creepy or not creepy in social scenarios, so this is false. It's subjectively creepy. And like all things subjective, it's by definition open to interpretation, though I concede that there may be multiple equally valid interpretations. I even said so above, when I said that I understand @mietze's hesitation.

That's hyperbole. Yes, there's no universal consensus for something like 'creepy', I agree, but there's a consensus of what's socially acceptable. Showing up unannounced at someone's workplace is inappropriate even without the romantic (or even sexual) connotations here; if someone I hadn't seen in 15-20 years just up and asked for me at the reception out of the blue I'd feel awkward. This is where I work for a living, it's not a social nexus.

Now, it can be argued some people don't put themselves on social media so that's the only way they can be reached... but that makes it worse, not better. If I feel strongly enough about my privacy to not take such easy, relatively safe steps to be approachable then most likely I wouldn't like more direct ways either.

The effect of all this is multiplied for exes. Big no-no. You're out of someone's life and then suddenly re-emerge like that? At best it's awkward.

Now if I just ran into someone I know at the movies or the mall or something sure, no problem.

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

Seriously, @mietze, you need to lighten up and learn to take a compliment. Maybe if you ask nicely (or just state your own perspective) Derp will tell you how should react to things.

You make me facepalm even when I'm agreeing with you. You do the cause you're trying to defend more damage than good by defending it the way you do.

[mietze]

Also to be clear: this person is not an ex. We met when I was 12, at a week long summer camp, and he was 17. I exchanged 2 or 3 letters with him--and then had no contact written or otherwise for..30 years.

[Arkandel]

@mietze said in RL Anger:

Also to be clear: this person is not an ex. We met when I was 12, at a week long summer camp, and he was 17. I exchanged 2 or 3 letters with him--and then had no contact written or otherwise for..30 years.

This sounds like this guy is having one hell of a mid-life crisis. I wonder if you're even the only girl from his past (?) he's tried to reach this way.

[Vorpal]

@Arkandel This totally does sound like a mid-life crisis. Often along the lines of "I've wasted my whole life doing what everybody wanted me to do and I never went after what I really wanted. Oh, if I could recapture the glory days of my youth..." etcetera etcetera etcetera.

I'm familiar with this because my ex-boyfriend (who is only 29) just went through a mid-life crisis at the quarter-life point and basically tried to contact me so we could get together, reminisce, hang out, and ultimately have sex to recapture those oh-so-rapscallious days of our twenties.

I told him to talk it over with my husband, and that was pretty much the end of that. But yes, dealing with someone who is going through that is incredibly frustrating if you're not cutting enough.

[Derp]

Yeah, because I have no idea what being a part of several different minorities is like, at least two of whom are frequently targeted for sexual assault and or just plain old physical violence. But you're right, I don't have the proper frame of reference to understand how totally legit that kind of reaction is.

OR, you know, maybe I was just taught a very different set of cultural norms, and find people's reactions to things puzzling, at best. Irrational, at worst.

But I guess I'm not allowed to have those things, because they disagree with whatever consensus you have. Especially, given the history of some subjects here, things that I should apparently not have my -own- opinion on, but have -your- opinion on. Even if they relate directly to me. Oh well.

@Arkandel - At least you don't quite jump on the hate-wagon. I even said that it's probably a legit reaction, several times over, but that it's simply not the reaction that I would have personally chosen to apply, because I tend to think in a different way, and that -potentially- there is another valid way to look at it. Why is that so wrong?

[HorrorHound]

So, do you guys normally froth and bark at each other like this?

[somasatori]

@mietze said in RL Anger:

Also to be clear: this person is not an ex. We met when I was 12, at a week long summer camp, and he was 17. I exchanged 2 or 3 letters with him--and then had no contact written or otherwise for..30 years.

Honestly, that is creepy as fuck. Both that a 17 year old would exchange letters with a 12 year old, and that he would come back as a 47 year old trying to find the now-older 12 year old he wanted to bang in his later teen years. I'm sorry you had to go through that.